This thread is very long. I'm posting some photos in this first message to show current state of the project. For full details, read on.

I have the fuselage on gear, the tail is complete, the ribs are complete. I am building the spars now.

There are also some odds and ends like laser-cut nose ribs and control stick assembly which I've built already but won't need until later.

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Below is the original text of my first post here.

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A big brown truck brought a rib kit and a set of plans yesterday, and this officially marks the start of my project. I'm going to keep a photo log of my construction here, to document my process and to solicit advice.

I have been an EAA member since 1993. I earned my private in 2000 and now own 1/2 of a Skybolt (I'm not the builder). I've built R/C models for a number of years, going so far as to manufacture a kit of my own design (www.slow-g.com). Some of my other models are at http://www.lib.aero/~ari/rc/  I decided I really wanted to build an airplane I could fly. I also wanted a design I could finish in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not looking for super performance or aerobatic ability (already have a Skybolt). I do want something that looks like an airplane--has wings, 3-axis control, etc.The MiniMAX is what I settled on.

I cleaned out my garage in preparation for this project, so there should be enough room there. I don't have a table yet, but I figure I don't need it right away--certainly I can build the ribs on the desk I have.

Wish me luck!

Ari.

Neat workshop. Will be looking forward to those pics.

regards Arthur

I too am in the early stages of an 1100 project but sense you must be a neat freak, (look at that shop ya'll, wow!) I won't be sending any pictures of my stuff. At least not yet. Actually, I'm not quite finished with my shop and I am using an old door on saw horses as a table at the moment. Just kidding about the neat freak stuff you know. I haven't been on this list very long myself. Welcome, Bob

Hi iter;
Welcome to the gang. If you are going to build a MiniMax, this is the groupe to belong to. Don't EVER hesitate to ask questions. This bunch of people will help you all they can.
As for the work shop, too neat, LOL
Enjoy building a great little plane.
Bob Hoskins

Iter,

Good luck with your project....!

Gene

A really neat way to do your logging is http://www.expercraft.com

It is free and very easy to use.  You can print it as you go as well.

It has time loging, and you can write what you do each day. It is diveded into sub categories of all the parts of the airplane so when you are done you can see exactly how much time you have in say, all of the ribs.

It also has cost tracking, includes free web pages etc.  your log can include writing and photos.

check out my web site here:   http://websites.expercraft.com/peted/

or go to http://www.expercraft.com and click on browse projects.  I'm the only one with an airbike on there.

You cannot see a lot of the features by just looking at the web page-you have to be signed in to see the cost tracking, etc.

Also, you can put an estimated number of hours to coplete the project and it will tell you the average hours you  are loging weekly, mothly, and at the current rate the date you will reach your estimated hours to complete.  I am averageing about 4.3 hours per week since I started.

Oh, and if you visit sign my guest book and tell me what kind of plane you have/  are working on/ want to have.

Welcome to the board Ari:
I can see you're ready to start your minimax, congratulations on your desition and good luck. We're all ready to help.
Ricardo

Hours today: 7
Running total: 7

I built the rib jig today and a test rib. Fred Brooks used to say "plan to throw one away (because you will anyway)". I used this rib to learn, and will use it tomorrow to make patterns for plywood gussets that will fit the actual ribs that come out of my jig. I was surprised to see how approximate the drawings were--when I saw the warning "PLANS ARE SUBJECT TO SHRINKING AND STRETCHING," I didn't realize just how much they would shrink. For instance, the back half of the rib outline didn't have a flat bottom in my copy; the lower line, which is supposed to be straight as far as I understand, bows up 5/32". I compensated as best I could, using the dimensions given. Is my copy of the plans strange, did I miss something or is this the normal experience? Also, has anyone tried laser-cutting the gussets?

Speaking about the plans, I was surprised to find they were all scaled down (except the ribs). Earlier, I had bought the plans for FP-303 (another Ison design--I chickened out of it because Fisher Products stopped selling kits and I was afraid of sourcing my own materials). The plans for FP-303 were full-scale blueprints. I also found it easier to follow instructions that were printed on the individual sheets instead of flipping back and forth between a drawing and the text at the front of the plans package. I was surprised to find different plans by the same designer came in such different formats.

Ari.

Ari:
You should read this thread that will help  build the ribs.
http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1184205554/

I forgot to mention, it comes with a bonus recipe  

Ricardo,

I'd read that thread. It was very informative, but unrelated to the question I'm asking. My rib came out perfectly flat on the bottom even without soaking. What was curved was the plan.

Ari.

Ari

I had the same problems with my plans;  the bottom wasn't flat and the two sections didn't splice together well.  I built my jig to all the given dimensions and let the top bow be as close and smoth as possible.  One wise person on this board said that everybody's ribs will be a little different, just make sure yours are all the same.

Ari: First thing I did was to cut the instructions pages to approx.page size and made sheets which I put in transparent folders and into a 3 ring binder. Also it is a good place to store building reminders you may get from the board just print the rerply you get then put them into the binder for quick ref. mine is about 75 pages long. Then while building ribs I studied the plans a lot. I made notations on every page as to parts size for both wood and all metal peices. such as RS-1 is 1/4 sq. wood. If a page ref. a metal part by RS # you will then have a ref. handy on that page. try it it won't take long and you will like it. Such as what size wood is RS-9 = 3/4 sq. and you don't have to look it up. Soon you will see it will stick in your mind. Good luck I scratch built my Hi-Max and I loved every minute. Charlie

Iter: Lets see now, thats a very nice shop, and it will probably work, but now you will have to make a trip to the local hardware and clutter it up with maybe a bandsaw, 4inch belt sander is nice,. be sure to get a metal cutting blade about 1/4in. 15-teeth to the inch, works great for cutting aluminum parts, maybe a small table saw, a decent drill press. just kidding but all this is nice,and you may already have. If we can help with any info, just ask and Im sure you will get answers the same day. Good luck, let the fun begin. By the way, I cut all my 1/16th gussets with common sissors. Charlie

Hours today: 6
Running total: 13

Randy:

Thanks for telling me I wasn't going mad. I tried to adjust the drawing where it said "keep this dimension" or "keep that dimension," but I kept getting confused which dimensions I had to hold One dimension is the height of the rib including cap strips, one is the height excluding them, one is on the short side of a vertical member, one is on the long, etc. All the while the drawings are nowhere near the stated dimensions... I ended up tearing my jig apart and making my own rib drawing based on the dimensions given. I'm almost done making a new jig based on it. I wish they had either included an honest 1:1 drawing of the rib in the plans, or if that is not possible of too expensive, they should have just made a scale drawing with /all/ dimensions, like they did for the fuselage for instance.

Ari.

Ace:

Thank you for that advice! I was afraid to cut the plans (I always try to avoid cutting things that could possibly stay whole) but your suggestion made so much sense! I cut the 3 sheets of instructions into 24, 12"x24" pages and stapled them together. Wonder why JDT didn't print them like that? I'm sure it would have been cheaper than the large sheets and handier, too. I also put the two part-size-reference sheets on my wall so I don't have to flip back and forth to them. Already I'm feeling better about navigating the plans.

On the power tool front, I have a 10" miter saw and a drill press. I'm afraid I won't be able to resist buying the rest on your list. Trouble is, there isn't enough bench space to put all of this good stuff on. You need /some/ room between these things.

Ari.

Hours today: 5
Running total: 18

I cut up a lot of 1/4" square stock for ribs today using a miter saw. The kit contains more stock than needed, so I'm making 26 ribs instead of 24 that are called for. No jokes about spare ribs please In the photo, you can see one set of sticks is in the jig and 25 other sets in small 5x5 bundles next to it. I still need to cut 1/6" ply gussets and then I can start gluing up ribs.

The rib kit contains 110 pieces of 1/4" square stock bundled 10x11 with saran wrap. I started pulling sticks out of the middle of this bundle expecting it to fall apart soon. Oddly enough, the structure held until all of the "inside" sticks were gone. My fiancée Irene who helped with some of the cutting today holds the gutted bundle.

Ari.

Wow, that hollow bundle is quite amazing.  It's good to see Irene involved.  Well.....at least until she dumps you over this whole airplane thing........

You're just jealous Rick. Irene loves airplanes.

Hi Ari,

From the looks of your shop, you're one of those "clean guys".  You are gonna do really well with this.  I think I'm still walking on sawdust from when I beveled my spars back in 2001.  ( a good layer of dust will keep that dropped AN nut from bouncing under the cabinets - JMO  

A couple of thoughts, the alignment blocks on the ribjig close to the joints are going to be in contact with glue at some time.  Whether from squeeze-out or impact from staple gun, gluing a rib to the jig is a real pain.  I rubbed my blocks and cams with a crayon as a release... a candle works too or maybe auto wax..  just something as a barrier.

And plan ahead for when you enevitably block access to the washer/dryer.  You need allies for a project this size, especially in the household.

You're gonna do great.

Steve  

Hey Steve, good point on sawdust's shock-absorbing qualities. You can't see it in the photos, but the shelves Irene is standing next to are covered in balsa sawdust as well, from when I cut 250 R/C autogyro kits in January.

Re glue and alignment blocks. The plans say use paste wax to block wood. How well do you think this works?

Thank you for your kind words and good wishes. I'm going to need all the support I can get to get through this it seems :=)

Ari.

My Air-Bike plans didn't mention a release, I had to find out the hard way.  I've never tried the paste wax, but if Wayne Ison says it works that's good enough for me.

Hours today: 5.5
Running total: 23.5

Cut up the ply gussets and /actually/ finished rebuilding the jig. Rib building starts for real tomorrow!

I considered having the gussets laser-cut, but decided against it because I felt bad about throwing away plywood from the kit (can't really laser-cut 7/8"x48" strips) and didn't want the delay. Well, next time I build a wing, I'll have the gussets laser cut. it's a pain to cut them if you're trying to achieve any kind of consistency in shapes. I mostly used the miter, and by the time I was done cutting, I wished I'd have outsourced the job to a laser shop. I'll have to go though the plans tomorrow to see if there are any other pieces that are candidates for laser cutting. I'm sure it will still keep me in the 51% rule :=)

Ari.

Ari,

Everything looks so neat in your rib buildiing set-up.   You mentioned having the gussets laser cut so they would be more precise as to shape and form.    This is a total waste of time and energy (not to mention cost) that could be better spent elsewhere.    One wing rib gusset isn't going to know that it is 1/16" longer or wider than it's neighbor and certainly when it is all covered inside the wing fabric no one else will know either.   I'm glad you're building however as sometimes just taking that first step is the longest one....!

Good luck with your project...!

Gene

I made one gusset each per the plans and used those as a template to trace to rest onto the wood, backing the diagonals against each other to save material.  Then sat down and cut them all with tin snips.
On the notched TE gussets, if I let the snips close completely while in the wood it would split away from the closed point.  I learned to stop at the corner with the wood still well between the blades and cranked them out in no time.  

Hours today: 2.5
Running total: 26

I built 2 ribs today. With all these pre-cut components and preparation, it still took over an hour per rib. The manual says you could build one in 20 minutes. Please tell me I'll get faster at this as I go along.


BTW, the T-88 bottle says "Mix ratio by weight 100:83." I take that to mean that for every 100oz of part A, I need 83oz of hardener. Or is it the other way around?

Quoted from Gene One wing rib gusset isn't going to know that it is 1/16" longer or wider than it's neighbor and certainly when it is all covered inside the wing fabric no one else will know either.

I'm still entertaining the thought of using transparent Tedlar to cover the wing as I mentioned in another thread. Thanks for the kind words and encouragement though. The more time I spend with this project, the less attractive a transparent wing becomes :=)

Ari.

My bottles say mix equal portions by volume.  I guess by equal volume it comes out to be 100:83 by weight.  

Hours today: 1.5
Running total: 27.5

Built another rib today--this time "only" spent 50 minutes on it. Also pulled the staples out of the two ribs I'd made yesterday. This took 20 minutes per rib.

OK. I guess this happens to every homebuilder at one point or another, and it's happened to me today. I find myself asking, will I finish this plane this decade? In this context, I want to ask, has anyone actually finished a MiniMAX in the 250-300 hours that JDT advertises?

Ari.

A friend of mine built several mini-max's and Air-bikes, probably around 12-15 planes total. One of the last mini-max's he built was done in 90 days and that one was a 1500R, I have no idea how many hours he spent on the plane. I was impressed and wish I could build that fast.

Was he building them for sale?

Ari.

Yes, he built and flew as well as building for other people. His name was George Nuber, he past away a couple years ago. He lived in Columbia Tennessee and was a good friend, we miss him.

Iter,
  I'm in the process of rebuilding a 1500 and I like you wonder if I'll ever see It done. 90% done and 90% to go as they say! I always try to get something done every weekend (the only time I get to work on it) no matter how small, it puts me 1 step closer. So keep them ribs a comeing . BTW, On the tool front, I think you'll find a bandsaw a most valuble item to have. I don't think I could build a thing without it and I belive you'll find the same thing out when you have one. And one other thing, Your a lucky man to have a gal like Irene---better hang on to her! Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.
                                                    Happy Landings, Rich

I don’t know what you mean be this  decade, year 2010 or 10 years from now but observing your building so far unless you have a major attitude change how you go about it if you keep going like this it will take over 10 years to finish it.

I don't like posting negative comments and I may get banned from this forum all together but here goes!!! George, you don't have Stas to push around any more because he ignoes you but now your on the prowl for a new victim. I know your gonna have a good come back so give it to me bud, im gonna ignore you too.

I simply confirmed his own observation based on building two of these airplanes myself, I don't know what your problem is with stating the facts.

George

The way you state them!!

Hours today: 7.5
Running total: 35

Built 9 more ribs today, I have a total of 12 now. Still takes about 45 minutes per rib, but it's easier to see progress. I got Irene to mix my epoxy today, and things went quicker. She brought her laptop into the garage and watched DVDs of Sex and the City between mixing batches of glue. I can live with that if that's what it takes :=)

Quoted from Richard Wessel And one other thing, Your a lucky man to have a gal like Irene---better hang on to her!

Not only that, I'm going to marry her, too!

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement Rich!

Ari.

Keep up the good work Ari!
It is obvious you are a perfectionist...as time goes by you will get over that!
This in turn will speed up your building.
There is a state called "good enuf" and you will soon recognize it!
Probably everybody feels in the beginning that they have to be ever
so careful in following to the nth degree every instruction given in the building plans!
We all felt in the beginning that if every little piece of work wasn't absolutely perfect that the plane might break!
I'm not saying throw caution to the winds but you'll get a lot more comfortable cutting material, mixing glue and forming up as time goes by. These are extraordinarily strong and durable little Airplanes! Have no fears, get it "good enuf" and you'll soon have a reliable and excellent aircraft!
This will speed up your building.
Best of Luck...
Will leonard

Ari, You've got my support and help! When you run into problems, we'll all help you out! You might want to plan your progress like a "project plan". Write it down if you haven't already. Don't get too specific. Be general, because if you don't meet your goals by a certain date, it won't be as dissapointing. I did meet my completion date on my Max, but just barely. You can't believe the self-satisfaction when you go one step-at-a-time and meet your goals as planned! Your progress will get faster and "smarter" (search the bbs for past topics).

As for your fiance Irene, don't let her go!!  She's one of them we pilots call "keepers".  I re-married last year to a woman just like her. She'll mix my T-88, clean my windsheild and BBQ pork ribs where the meat falls off the bone at the same time!  This is about as close to heaven I can get (while flying on earth)!  Yahoo!!!  Harold

Hours today: 3
Running total: 38

Pulled staples out of the 9 new ribs.

Thanks Will and Harold! I knew I could turn to the board for encouragement and support. This "good enuf" is hard to figure out. I'm taking comfort in your suggestion that as time goes by I'll find it easier to find the "good enuf" state.

Irene is the best thing that happened to me in my life. bar none. I never knew a relationship could be this good.

Ari.

I must be a little slower.  I just pulled my 9th rib from the jig and I have 85 hours.  The only other things I have done are nose ribs (main and aileron) and a wing table.  I must be to perfectionistic.

I haven't started on either of these yet. I think I'm going to laser-cut the nose ribs and the 1/4" supports for aileron hinges. I'll let you guys know how these come out, and how many hours I'll have spent by then :=)

Speaking of tables, how big does it need to be? Does it need to be bigger than the wing's planform, or does it only need to support the spars?

Ari.

I routered both my aileron ribs and nose ribs.  It worked really well.  I could do two each of the 1/4 inch ones and three each of the 1/16 ones at a time.   The only one I had to make by hand was a template.  Check out my notes and pictures here:   http://websites.expercraft.com/peted/

Pete

Hours today: .5
Running total: 38.5

Do you count time spent shopping towards build time? It would be too depressing if I did. Never knew I could spend so much time at a hardware store. Anyway, bought the plywood and 2x4s today. Looks like the table is going to be a pretty tight fit in the garage. I'm planning to use the black metal selves (you can see them in the first picture) as legs for the table. Hope that will work.

Ari.

Oh my, that is a tight space to build an airplane, but it has been done before and will be again.    I built my Evans VP-1, back in the late 1960's, in a space no bigger than this.   Good luck with your project and keep us posted....!

Gene

For the maximum utility the bench needs to be built as double decker with a full size shelf half way up that’s where you store all your stock and parts. For the top most people use particle board because its more stable and doesn’t twist with humidity. I suggest another  trip to lumber get particle board for the top, 2x6 for the top frame , use the 2x4 and plywood for the lower shelf and build it with regular legs.

George,

Your suggestions are excellent and generally overlooked....!    That wide open area under the bench is valuable storage space that is critically needed, especially in a small shop.    I always use 3/4" particle board on the top for the reason you have outlined.

Have a SUPER day....!

Gene

Thanks for the comments guys. Is plywood really this bad? I thought particle board couldn't take the hammering that was required for jigging wings and fuselage.

I do intend to make use of the mid-height shelves on the metal frames---there is no such thing as too much storage space. The reason I didn't want to build the table with traditional all-wood construction is that if I do, I'l have to throw it out when I'm done with my Max--there is nowhere to store a table this size, and I can't keep it where it sits now, the space is needed for other things. If I just build a table-top and reuse shelves for legs, I can disassemble the thing when I'm done, put the table-top against the wall behind the shelves, and put the shelves back to their original use.

Ari.

Ari,

My workbench has 2x4 legs on it which are screwed in place using deck screws.   The workbench has been taken apart and reassembled so many times I have lost count of them.    Actually, the legs, framing and lower shelf go back to my first attempt at building when I lived in Quebec back in the late 1960's.  

They then went from Quebec to Wisconsin and later out to the West Coast (Vancouver, WA) and then back to Northern Wisconsin and now are in their final resting place here in Southern Wisconsin.

If you do decide to use wood (and I suggest that you do) make sure that you mark each joint with a permanent marker so you can take it apart and put it back together again easily....!

I had said that I always use particle board for my workbench tops and this always has been true up until a few year ago when I lucked out and came across a couple of "fire-proof" flush doors that are so heavy one can't hardly lift them alone.   They are really stable and I love them....!

Gene

Hours today: 6
Running total: 44.5

Built 1 4x8 table. One more to go. I used the 3/4 plywood I bought yesterday. I'll see how bad it is, and if I find have to replace it with particle board, I will.

You can see how it will be very easy to put a shelf under this table, or several.

Ari.

Something is missing...  The mess I would normally make!  Great looking shop.  Table looks good too.  I went with 2 x 6 boards.  I've seen others with engineered floor beams.  As long as it is straight and solid, good.

Mike

Ari,
Would one consider table building, airplane building? I'm interested to see just how long it will take an accomplished guy like yourself to build one of the birds.

That is a tight space, but I'm sure shear drive as well as your keen organizational skills will make it work.

Dennis

Quoted from djohn Ari, Would one consider table building, airplane building? I'm interested to see just how long it will take an accomplished guy like yourself to build one of the birds.

This is an interesting legal point. I decided to exclude time I spend shopping for parts, tools and materials, either online or offline. I decided to exclude time spent making room for the project--tearing out drywall and 2x4s in the garage. I definitively exclude time I spend reading this forum :=) But things like rib jigs and tables somehow seem in my mind to be more tightly tied to the airplane. In any case, it shouldn't take too many hours to finish, so I don't think it will skew the total time too much :=)

Oh, and calling me an accomplished guy... I'm just starting out.

Quoted from djohn That is a tight space, but I'm sure shear drive as well as your keen organizational skills will make it work.

Hope you're right!

Ari.

I was just thinking that someone might just have a 16'+ level workbench already. I am interested in just how accurate the build times are for planing purposes. I would like to build one from scratch after I get the two I'm currently working on together.

As for the accomplished, I was more refering to your expertise in models. After all the JDT website says if you know how to build a model ... I have never built a model airplane before but have apprenticed for years as an a&p wannabe on certified production aircraft. In my book that makes you miles ahead of me at the task at hand.

Thanks
Dennis

Hours today: 3.5
Running total: 48

Built the second table today. Went much quicker second time around! First photo shows tabletop during assembly, after I drilled and deburred the holes and set screws in them, but before I drove them in. Looks kinda like cleco'ed aluminum sheet, doesn't it?

Dennis, thanks for your kind words. For your estimate, just deduct 9.5 hours I took to build my tables from the final total I'll end up with :=) My model building taught me to try to build light, but so far, nothing in my R/C experience prepared me for anything I've had to do on this project. 1/4" square spruce is /very/ heavy wood in my R/C world, and 2x4s? Never once touched those until I started making space in the garage. I'm sure your A&P training will help you immensely, especially closer to the end of the project. What airplanes are you working on?

BTW, on the JDT website, under "Builders' gallery," there is a guy who spent over a thousand hours building his 1100. He says it was so easy because of all his R/C experience... A thousand hours!

Ari.

Ari, I'm working on a 1400Z and a 1600R. I guess mostly the 1400Z is on hold. I bought the Z @ "100%". after the second trip to get the plane (on the first trip I determined the plane was not in fact airworthy and went to get a trailer) I got it home and now it's disassembled down to about the last stick. Needs too much work to do quickly and I'm ready to go flying. So I bought the 1600R @ 90%. It's really a work of art inside and after spending weeks inspecting and massaging, it was truly over 90%. Some wiring and hardware tweaking and cover the ailerons then paint on ailerons and I will schedule the DAR.

As for the a&p training, it seems to have only added an anal dimension to these projects. For instance to remount the instruments instead of just placing the instruments on plywood marking the holes and cutting them out, I am laying them out as solid models then I will make a program and run the material on the CNC router. I keep wanting to see production type appearances on these machines and it mostly doesn't fit.

In the mean time I have added a tailwheel endorsement to my private ticket to help satisfy my "must fly now" urges.

Your progress looks great. Nothing like a stack of uniform ribs to help keep you fired up. Have you thought about where you will keep the assembled parts while you finish the other large assemblies? I have a similar space restriction and I have resorted to tying up the big parts to the ceiling.

thanks for the inspiration

Dennis

Ari, so far, everything about you and your endevors is very impressive, my hats off to you. If you were to video the process of constructing and assembling the M/M I feel sure you could make a few bucks selling them. You know, an instructional video series. I would be happy to purchase one because I do much better with visual instruction than written instruction. I'm sure there are a lot of potential builders out there that feel the same way. If I had the time and talent, I would do it. Keep up the good work and thanks for all the post, you are an inspriation. Bob

You guys make me blush. Thank you for your kind words and the motivation you give me.

Dennis, it sounds like you are really close on the 1600R. That is so exciting! Keep us posted!

Quoted from djohn Have you thought about where you will keep the assembled parts while you finish the other large assemblies? I have a similar space restriction and I have resorted to tying up the big parts to the ceiling.

Storage is a problem. In fact, the reason the ribs are sitting on my new shiny worktable is because they have nowhere else to go at the moment. They used to live on the shelf that became legs for the table and are still looking for a home. The ceiling would have been easy, had it not been for all the R/C airplanes that hang from there. There is some unused ceiling space above the desk and washer, so that's probably where the big parts will go. I might be able to fit the fuse under my worktable. It sends shivers through my spine to think about storing /two/ airplanes in this space.

Ari.

Quoted Text You guys make me blush.

Hey watch it now, I said you inspire me not you complete me!

Space is tight for the two, keep in mind one is mostly back to stock and I won't get back on it until the "R" flies the coup. I hope I'm close on the "R" and I will post pics soon, It seems much more exciting to look at pics of someone building as apposed to someone buying one thats almost complete. I guess you could say I am currently in it for the flying. I think I will find it easier to stay motivated after I already have one flying. I find flying very stress relieving, It's my happy place.

Dennis

Hours today: 3
Running total: 51

I drew up full-size plans for the fuselage today, now that I have a table big enough to hold them. Wow this thing is long. I know the fuse is not very long as man-carrying airplanes go, but nothing in my R/C experience prepared me for this :=)

You can't see the pencil lines too good in the photo :=( I more or less reproduced everything that's on drawing 1. I drew this on paper instead of on the bench as the instructions suggest. I think I'll do full-size drawings for fin/rudder and stab/elevator the same way, and then I can do the actual building in any order. I'm still waiting for my wood.

That, and an I'm-making-engine-noises photo, one of many to come, I'm sure.

Ari.

Engine noises are good, in fact mandatory but you must get the stick and throttle thing down. This ain't no "yoke" bird.  

Dennis

Arthur made a similarly correct observation over here: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1187319013/

Quoted from Arthur Withy Great photograhpy Ari...gave me a laugh...I like the no shoes concept however there isnt a control yoke in a Minimax...Its a real aeroplane and comes with a stick.....maybe another photo required..! The smile looks convincing

Irene caught me off-guard in this photo--that's why the smile looks so convincing. I immediately realized the yoke problem and posed for a number of "stick and throttle" pictures, but none of them had that convincing engine nose to them.

Quoted from djohn I particularly like the "dimensional adjustment instruments" (axes) on the wall.

UARTs is what we call them--Universal Alignment and Readjustment Tools. Cf. http://catb.org/jargon/html/L/LART.html (One of them is a hammer, BTW)

Not nearly as convincing. Irene, you must work on the "unaware" of it all.

Dennis

Hours today: 8
Running total: 59

Drew full-size fin & rudder on paper. Started working on DXF files for laser cutting. I wish JDT would supply the files... or better yet... laser-cut parts... Here's an example--the aileron end rib. White outline is the size of RS-353 that the ribs are made of.

Ari.

Hours today: 3
Running total: 62

Made the 6 "bearing brackets" for ailerons. I think I'm getting closer to finding the "good enuf" bliss. My holes are off-center and the rounded ends are not very round. Is there hope for me yet?

Ari.

Hours tonight: 2.5
Running total: 65.5

I made enough gussets for 27 ribs, except for one particular shape. I found out I didn't have enough of the funkiest-looking piece, so I decided to laser-cut it instead of making it by hand. I have access to a laser cutter at http://www.sawdustshop.com --I'll get them cut Tuesday.

Ari.

Hours today: 4
Running total: 69.5

Built 6 ribs today, bringing the total to 18. I'm done with "plain" ribs. The 6 that I still need to build have hinges and relevant reinforcement blocks, and 4 of them have plywood skin on one side.

The laser parts are turning out well. I think I'll be laser-cutting a lot more. Oh, just thinking about all these parts I won't have to saw and sand... Nice thing about the laser is that it can also engrave without cutting--note the hinge center point on the aileron end rib.

Speaking of end ribs. There were 3 pieces labeled RS-535 in the rib kit. As far as I can tell, only 4 ribs are needed, and this type of plywood isn't used anywhere else in the ribs (some is used on the rudder, but that would be in a different kit I assume). Is this a spare piece they gave me, or did I miss parts that I need to make out of it?

Ari.

That laser really does a good job. What software did you use to lay the parts out in?

Dennis

I used QCad (www.ribbonsoft.com)--this is the only CAD program I know of that runs on Linux. I used to write SVG by hand for laser jobs I outsourced in the past (until I found SawDustShop) and it worked well where the contractors could read it properly. I think I'll go back to writing SVG.

Ari.

Hours today: 1
Running total: 70.5

Pulled staples out of the 6 ribs I made yesterday. 1.4 oz worth of staples were removed. Some got lost in the process, so I estimate a total penalty of 6 oz for the whole wing if you leave the staples in.

Ari.

My progress so far--18 ribs.

Ari.

A box of 5,000 of the Duo-Fast staples I use wouldn't weigh 6 ounces and you don't have to pull them....!   Your wing ribs look great....!

Gene

A drawing incorrectly printed?

It appears that part of drawing 14 in my set of plans hasn't printed correctly. It looks like a band is missing in the middle of the page (front spar, above "SECTION A-A" at the yellow arrows. Can anyone look at his drawing and tell me if it's different than mine?

Ari.

Hi Ari, You are correct. My plans are both Team, on the 1400Z it's drawing 16, on the 1600R it's drawing 17. Your copy was obviously a misprint. Mine show a elevation view just like the rear spar below but some of the dimensions and gussets are very different. I don't know what the difference between the 1100R and my two models are, I can take a picture tomorrow evening. My camera is at work.

Let me know
Dennis

Man, I wish there was a woodshop like your's in my area. Nice parts. The metal working needs to be more precise. I don't know if its your layout or if you're not using the right fixturing to hold the parts from moving, but try to make them look as good as the wood stuff. I think you'll be happier once you do. Sorry,  not picking on you, but the way they are made prevents them from being interchangable if one gets flipped over, etc.

Ron, thanks for the feedback. I love that shop, just found it, was looking for a place like that all my life! If only they did metalwork as well...

About the hinges--I agree that they could be better, and my sense of aesthetics hurts. But why would I want to flip them around? If I wanted to redo them, can I use steel bar from the hardware store, or do I need some sort of special material? (BTW, I think the reason they came out like that was that I had my drill press on too low RPM and the bit wandered).

Dennis, thanks for the heads up. I emailed John @ JDT, I assume he can mail me another copy of that drawing. I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something, that the drawing is actually misprinted.

Ari.

I have a customer here in Grand Rapids, MI that does both wood and metal on the laser cutter!  Mark Maker Inc.  616-538-6980.  Steve Stout is the VP Production.  It's a nice small shop that makes patterns for steel ruled dies and such.  They have a couple lasers.  One does flat work only, the other does both flat work on the table and round drum work on a special station.
http://www.mark-makerco.com/
Mike Howe

Don't know on the minimax but the material called out on my drawings for my airbike say 4130 for the aileron brackets.  4130 is a lot stronger and stiffer than anything you could get at the hardware store. You might be able to find it at a metal supply, or I am sure that A/C spruce would stock it.

I havn't quite got as far as you on making those brackets but I am planning on stack drilling them so they all come out the same.  

Pete

Pete, Stack drilling may not help and may actually hurt. The key is to:

1. have a sharp drill bit that is either a factory grind or the grind is absolutely centered, and make sure the chuck spins it true. you can tap most chucks into running true with little effort

2. center punch the hole location and center drill if you choose, but if you center drill don't use a drill diameter larger than the final drill bit center web thickness, or "fixture" for the holes (clamp a piece of stock on the drill press table with a stop at the end you can change for the different hole locations

3. turn the drill the correct speed (for a 3/8 drill use 800 rpm, it gets you 78 SFM (surface feet per minute)) 700-900 is a good range to hit around 80 SFM (which is appropriate for 4130 at rockwell C hardness from 18-26) much faster you will burn things and may work harden the mtl, any slower you will have a chatter problem and may walk off location.

Also try to use some kind of sulfur based cutting oil to make the bit live. This may sound like I'm picking nits, but if you follow the above directions you will happily cut many holes on location with a normal drill bit.

Hope your weekend goes well, for me I'm covering and painting my ailerons

Dennis

Quoted from Mike Howe I have a customer here in Grand Rapids, MI that does both wood and metal on the laser cutter! http://www.mark-makerco.com/

Interesting website! Maybe I'll outsource some of the metal work. The cool thing about Sawdust is that they let you use their machines. You don't outsource the work, you do it yourself, and that's so much more fun. Their laser won't cut metal though, I'm quite sure of that. I just started using them, so I don't know what their policies are for cutting metal on their CNC router.

Ari.

Quoted from Pilotpeat Don't know on the minimax but the material called out on my drawings for my airbike say 4130 for the aileron brackets.  4130 is a lot stronger and stiffer than anything you could get at the hardware store. You might be able to find it at a metal supply, or I am sure that A/C spruce would stock it. I haven't quite got as far as you on making those brackets but I am planning on stack drilling them so they all come out the same.

I actually drilled them as a stack. Well, drilled one hole in each and then put a bolt through that one and drilled the rest as a stack. Didn't help me any :=)

Ari.

I haven't done any metal work since high school and it shows.

Quoted from djohn 1. have a sharp drill bit that is either a factory grind or the grind is absolutely centered, and make sure the chuck spins it true. you can tap most chucks into running true with little effort

How do you check that the chuck spins true?

Quoted from djohn if you center drill don't use a drill diameter larger than the final drill bit center web thickness, or "fixture" for the holes

I don't follow. What is the "web" in this context?

Quoted from djohn 3. turn the drill the correct speed (for a 3/8 drill use 800 rpm, it gets you 78 SFM (surface feet per minute)) 700-900 is a good range to hit around 80 SFM (which is appropriate for 4130 at rockwell C hardness from 18-26) much faster you will burn things and may work harden the mtl, any slower you will have a chatter problem and may walk off location.

I had it set up for 660rpm and it walked off like you said.

Quoted from djohn Also try to use some kind of sulfur based cutting oil to make the bit live.

Anything in particular you can recommend? Again, my metalworking foo is really rusty (pun intended).

Good luck with your ailerons!


Ari.

Quoted Text How do you check that the chuck spins true?

I generally use a dial indicator, if you don't have one handy move something stationary very close to the tip of the drill that is mounted in the chuck and rotate the chuck slowly by hand. If the tip of the drill wobbles, bend the drill by hand-gently. They usually have some give or tap the end of the chuck body with a soft faced hammer (brass aluminum lead or something that will not dent the body) until the drill doesn't wobble.

Quoted Text I don't follow. What is the "web" in this context?

The web I refer to is the center of the drill that is not ground to form the flutes. If you drill a pilot hole slightly smaller than the web, as soon as you break the surface the hole will guide the drill. Ideally, the hole should be "the size of the web". If the hole is larger than the web it has some room to move before it hits the resistance of the side of the pilot hole so it just figures, if you have to err-err to the small side. Make sure you form a good cone shaped dent with the center punch. It isn't just a mark, It should mechanically guide the pilot drill. If you center punch off center the hole will be off center. A good center punch dent and the right sized pilot will accomodate for a lot of drill bit wobble, of course the pilot should also run true.

Quoted Text I had it set up for 660rpm and it walked off like you ...

That figures out to about 65 SFM which isn't all that far below the window, use pretty good positive pressure on the handle while pulling it through the material and it should help.

I hope this helps,

Dennis

Hours today: 1.5
Running total: 72

Drew wing and aileron nose ribs.


Dennis, thanks for the explanation, I get it now.


Ari.

ARI; One thing about it if You know how to cut them this way, they are all the same, and You sure don,t have much waste. Charlie

Hours tonight: 4
Running total: 76

So I spent most of today doing CAD. I figure I'd have spent much more time trying to cut all these parts out by hand. I expect it will take a couple of hours to cut all of this on TUesday when I go to the shop.

The funny thing is, this is the second time I re-drafted the rib (first time was on paper when I was making the jig because my copy of the rib drawing was all skewed). This time around, I found myself thinking how much better the CAD drawing was, and how I should really laser-cut a jig and ll the ribs will /really/ be the same and would actually match the 1/4" end rib covers... OK, never mind, I'll just go back to finishing my ribs :=)

Charlie, thank you for your kind words. I hope this actually works out and I haven't made some stupid mistake in the DXF... That would be a good way to produce much waste very quickly :=)

Ari.

Ari,

I have been following your build with great interest. Sort of a real-life 'builder's manual' for me

I have just received my Eros rib & tail kits, and this laser cutting seems like just the solution for me. I have found a shop locally that will cut for me.

Just a question, does the edge burn on the cut parts need to be sanded, or is it quite deep? Does it affect the glue or should I stop worriyng now and get started?

Many thanks for sharing your experience.

Colin.

Colin, I'm glad you find my posts useful. I've built a number of laser-cut R/C models and never had problems gluing to a cut line. With my MiniMAX, all glue joints have been on unburnt sides so far--the first time I'll put glue on a cut line will be when I glue nose ribs in. However I don't anticipate trouble there. I'm not sure what you mean by a deep burn. One thing to keep in mind is that  in JDT kits a lot of the plywood comes cut into thin strips, e.g. you are supposed to cut rib gussets from a 7/8"x48" strip. These will be difficult to cut on a laser. When you order your next kits, if you decide to go the laser route, you may want to ask JDT to not cut these pieces into strips.

I'm looking forward to reading about your experience with your kit!


Ari.

Ari,

Thanks for your advice. You are correct, I have not unpacked the kit yet so the plywood may be in small strips. I will try check that tonight, I've been too busy studying the plans

By deep burn I meant what would happen if you lightly sanded the edges? Or would you have to take off a lot of material before it's clean?

I will most definitely start a new thread for my build once it gets going.
First have to sort the garage, build a table, finish desks in my home office for junk in garage etc etc. But in the meantime that's the beauty of homebuilding, I can work on the ribs in front of the TV, while wearing my pyjamas

Regards,

Colin.

Sweet, thanks for the visual!!! Bob

Quoted Text I can work on the ribs in front of the TV, while wearing my pyjamas

I usually work on my ribs in the backyard, fully clothed, with a frosty beverage  

Dennis

Water jet might be an option? The plywood would dry in a short time and no burned surface. In my area, western PA, laser cutting is harder to find than water jet.

Hours today: 7
Running total: 83

Cut all 1/8" nose ribs, including wing and aileron. Cut 1/8" root and tip rib doublers. Failed to cut 1/4" nose ribs. Sort of cut 1/4" reinforcements for aileron hinges. First the good:

I cut out all 16 main nose ribs and 18 aileron nose ribs in less than an hour. The are all identical, but I marked them win "L" or "R" and station number because I keep getting confused which ribs have 1/8" noses and which have 1/4". Hopefully I got it right when I did the DXF. There are gaps in the sequence because some ribs have only 1/4" noses.

The laser has a working area of 24"x18", so I had to cut the plywood in half (and you wondered why I had a 24" marker in the file) The ribs came out looking very good and uniform. The burn doesn't seem to me to be a problem. You could sand it off, but to me that misses the whole point of using CNC :=) I have no experience with waterjets, but I hear they work pretty well.

Also good--since the biggest piece that can fit in the laser is 24"x18", I used a CNC mill to cut 1/4" root and tip doublers. This machine has a completely different approach to control software and a steeper learning curve. I ruined a 48x7 piece of plywood the first time I tried to use it. But it is also very satisfying to watch the thing do all the hard work for you once you set it up correctly. From one day worth of experience working with it, it seems that the main problem with this type of machine is securing your parts to the worktable. On a laser, a part that you cut out stays on the table. On the mill, it becomes a free projectile if you hadn't nailed it to the table. 1/8" plywood was easy enough to secure--the stapler I use for making ribs works. The problem is knowing before hand where to staple so that both the part and the margin are secured to the table, and so that the router bit doesn't go through a staple. Securing 1/4 plywood is going to be more of a challenge.

The cut is very clean, and since the lasered and the milled parts came from the same DXF, they are identical. They also connect well with the aileron end ribs I cut earlier.

The bad--I wasted 3 hours trying to laser-cut 1/4" ply. The laser just won't go through it. I tried everything, high power, low power, multiple passes, but all I got was bad burn and flames. The wood actually was on fire inside the laser for a few seconds until I stopped it. I'll have to come back and mill these parts on the CNC router as soon as I figure out how to secure them. It will have to be next week though. Sawdust Shop only lets you use the laser and the CNC mill 2 hours a week each, and I went over quota on both today.

The ugly--I discovered clothespins today. Turns out I can use them instead of stapling gussets to the reverse of a rib. I still need to use them on the front or the rib will fall apart when I pull it out of the jig, but not on the reverse! No staples to drive and no staples to pull. This is a #5 rib which will have an aileron hinge in it and consequently has 1/4" reinforcements. I sort of managed to cut them on the laser today, but the parts came out really ugly, with a lot of burn and took much manual work to finish.

I've gone though almost all of the material in the rib kit. I might redo the metal parts, but otherwise the end of the ribs is in sight.

Ari.

Ari, I usually predrill "hold down" holes in parts that will be too small for the universal vacuum table to hold on the router I use. I also use tiny wood screws or finishing tacks on parts like the ribs you are trying to cut. Also make one pass around the part at .020 less that the thickness of the plywood. If the plywood is .250 make your first pass at Z-.230 1/8 2 flute end mill (router bit) @24000 rpm and 350 ipm and make last pass at Z-.248 and 250 ipm. The combination of a small screw or tack and leaving just a hair of material on the cut makes for a far better yield (read less flying rib parts) that is until you want them to fly. You will have to very lightly trim the parts to get the remnants of the .002 you left on the part. You may not have to tack thru the parts if your router runs accurate in Z.

HTH
Dennis

Hours today: 2
Running total: 85

pulled staples out of last night's rib and built two more--another #5, and the left root rib. This one is covered with 1/8" plywood and took some planning. I figured it out eventually, though I'm still not sure what to do for the two ribs that have plywood on the left side. Instructions have you dry-staple gussets, remove the rib from the jig, staple gussets on the other side, then pull dry staple and glue and staple plywood on the left side. Does this actually work, or will my ribs fall apart by the time I'm done stapling?

I made a slight modification to the jig to allow gluing in 1/4" reinforcement blocks concurrent with making the rib. Plans have you build your rib first, then cut away the relevant gussets and glue in the plywood blocks. I wanted gussets on both sides of the blocks, and to be able to fit things exactly, I removed two cams and a block from the jig, and was able to lay and dry-fit everything without gussets.

The way you build MiniMAX ribs is with cap strips too long and then cut them once the glue is dry. (at point shown in red). That's easy enough for normal ribs, but end ribs have plywood sides, so I'll have to cut the strips on the plywood. You can't cut them until the glue is dry because you need pull their ends together with temporary member outlined in blue.

I have 21 ribs at this point. 3 more to go!

Ari.

I did it like the plans call for and they turned out good.  Dry stapled with just the ends of the capstrip glued, removed from jig, glued stapled second side, then removed dry stapled gussets.  Worked perfectly.

I just finished the aileron fillers last weekend.  Instead of cutting out the gussets to fit the fillers in I installed the fillers before the second set of gussets went on.  This worked well.  I just had to do a little sanding on the corners where the filler would have hit the glue that squezed out from the first set of gussets.  I epoxied the second side of gussets when I epoxied in the fillers so I wouldn't have to deal with glue squeze out where the second side gussets went.

The end ribs you might epoxy the plywood on at the same time as epoxing the fillers in.  I didn't and got carried away and started putting gussets where the plywood was supposed to be.  Fortunalty I figured out my mistake before the epoxy cured and I was able to get them back off without too much trouble.

I don't know if you can see it in the photos, but I glued two blocks in when I was building the rib. The only part I didn't glue in was the 1/4" aileron nose rib because I don't have them yet (1/4" ply didn't cut on the laser), but these are not that important at this stage because no gussets cover them. I prefer to put the fillers in at the same time with everything else so I don't have to deal with dry glue that interferes with fit. I assemble both sides of a rib on the same batch of epoxy, including the big plywood on end ribs.

Speaking of which, I built the right tip rib. Running total hours: 86.5

Ari.