Eros in Thailand - Print Topic

Dear forum members
My name is Reto and quite a while ago I have joined this forum with the intention to start building my MM Eros.. At that time I still lived in Philippines, but facing some health issues.. Now, 4 month, a surgery and 2 moves (Philippines - Bangkok / Bangkok - Chiang Mai in northern Thailand) later, I am happy to report that the Eros project has finally taken off..
We (my gf and 2 cats) made new friends here and my landlord build a great workshop.. As a Swiss guy I appreciate the cooler climate in Chiang Mai with its stunning scenery.. In short we found the ideal new home..
Certainly there will be questions and uncertainties surfacing during the construction process.. The collective wisdom and knowledge of you guys will help tremendously.. Thank you in advance for any support..
Kind regards
Reto

PS
A big "thanks" to David C. from MM for his advise and helping to overcome monumental import hurdles..

Welcome to the Lonesome Buzzards Reto. This is undoubtedly the kindest forum on the web! Enjoy the build and don't hesitate to ask any questions that come to mind.

-Sean

Reto, welcome to the board! ask lots of questions, and send lots of pics. most of all have fun building. Jim

Welcome aboard Reto. This site is very international!

Hello and Welcome Reto....glad to have you here. Thanks for sharing your story and photos with us, and I will very keen to watch your progress.

cheers Arthur

Adelaide, South Australia.

Hi..we're supposed to be neighbors in the Philippines. I'm glad we are living in the same house here in East Tennessee.
Feel at home Reto this is big happy family WELCOME :)....,Phil

Welcome! These guys are the best builders asset that you can have. Enjoy your time here and I am looking forward to your build posts and the report of your first flight. :)

Hi Reto, welcome ! The best active forum I have ever come across with and I am really an addict of Maxes. Having 3 of them :)
The best part will come when you start to fly these beauties. But until, you can really count on help on this forum !
Peter from Hungary

Dear Sean, Jim, Ricardo, Arthur, Phil, "Aeronut", Peter & David
Thank you for the warm welcome!
Appreciate your help and guidance...

Status:
90 hours into the build, vertical stabilizer and rudder finished, 2 ribs done...

Cheers
Reto

Reto..soon you will be in finishing stage...keep in touch...take care..

please share your accomplishments...it means a lot for us...

Phil

Hi Rito;
Welcome to the best group on the net. Don't ever hesitate to ask a question, we are here to share. Don't forget, we all love pictures. Welcome again.
Bob

Quoted from Phil

Reto..soon you will be in finishing stage...keep in touch...take care..

please share your accomplishments...it means a lot for us...

Phil

Phil, certainly I will... accomplishments and cock ups... ;)

Dear Bob and TTT, thank you for your kind words...

Dear forum members, here it comes... :)

My first question:
Looking at the construction plans, I can't help it, but I feel a bit uneasy when high loads are passed through several wood sections of the structure. Particularly at the vertical stabilizer where the brace channel brackets are attached.

I have already drilled the hole according plan (corner, below the rib). The corner block (red drawing) makes this section strong, but wouldn't it be much stronger to attach the bracket just above the rib? I already have glued a second (bigger) corner block in place (above the rib, green drawing). I understand there will be quite some push/pull forces acting on that section. Interestingly, with the horizontal stabilizer the brace channel brackets ARE attached outside the rib (which would correspond to the "green" drawing with the vertical stab.

What is your opinion?
Please tell me if I am over-cautious...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

The loads aren't that high. The maximum tail load is a 220 lb download (see http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?v-download/f-minimaxstressanalysis_7196.pdf/). The stabilizer spar resists the load in bending but let's suppose the whole 220 lb load is reacted by the fin spar in compression. The bearing strength of the 3/16" bolt hole is at least 900 lbs. The ply gussets alone provide a shear strength of at least 500 lbs. The horizontal member in the fin at the strut attachment point provides little if any resistance to the vertical load, any resistance it might offer ultimately gets resolved into the ply gussets. The bigger block above the horizontal member does make the attachment stronger but only because the bigger block has larger glue surfaces with the fin's spar and the ply gussets.

Edit: Taking another look at the bearing stress of the hole. The bearing stress might be reduced by moving the hole as proposed because now the bolt is bearing at least partly perpendicularly to the grain in the crossmember which is ~10% the bearing strength parallel to the grain. So, you'd probably want to move the hole up a half-inch from the crook of the crossmember/spar junction so that the bolt is bearing on the parallel(more or less) grain on the wood in the block.

I have no intention of sidetracking the discussion, but wanted to say "thanks" to you, Bob, for posting the stress analysis report. I've always wanted to print it out, always forgot, but finally did today. It should provide some interesting info about "our" little plane. Just at a glance, I'd bet there is W-A-Y more documented engineering info on the MiniMAX than any number of other small planes that are available by plans or kits.

Thanks!

Lynn

Dear Bob
Thank you for the link. The document is of great value and reassuring. Furthermore your explanation makes perfect sense.
In my case it will be an Eros model, around 700 lbs GW with metal landing gear ("VV" shape) and Hirth 55HP...
Are there any specific areas which I still could/should re-enforce during construction?
Thank you!
Reto

Lynn,

You're very welcome. Another great source is ANC-18 which is a reference for the TEAM report. I'd also suggest Richard Hiscock's "Design of Light Aircraft" and Tom Rhodes' "Stress Without Tears". Together, these secondary sources have helped me begin to understand how the TEAM analysis was done.

Reto,
I developed a spreadsheet to investigate the loads described in the TEAM analysis and plugging in a 700 lb gross weight yields a tail down load of nearly 300 lbs. Still, low enough that the tail bracing as specified in the plans is sufficient. I am not an engineer. I suggest you stick to the plans. When you begin to make changes, you can initiate a chain of analysis that results in redesigning the whole airplane.

Bob
Appreciate your help and thank you for the load figures.
I certainly will stick to the plans.
Reto

Dear members

The progress is a bit slow, but I am enjoying the build. :)
5 ribs, vert. stab plus rudder finished, started with horizontal stab. 120 hours into the build.

I got some question regarding the treatment/protection of the partially finished parts (ribs, stabilizer, etc.) .

It is difficult to get hold of well known products here in Thailand. At the moment the workshop has a controlled environment with humidity steady around 50% and temperature 77F. To achieve this we are running air-conditioning plus de-humidifier 24/7. Thailand has a tropical climate. The wood was in closed crates for over 2 month (high humidity) before I started the build. There are no visual clues of mould, but some metal parts in the kit show sign of corrosion.

Q1: At this stage of the build is it advisable to use an anti-fungal/mould protection and apply a good polyurethane lacquer or would the mould protection be enough?
Q2: Are this two substances compatible (on the long run)?
Q3: Would the polyurethane negatively affect the future assembly of the wing (T88 bonding)?
Q4: Will I have to sand down the polyurethane before further assembly?

Product and build pictures are attached.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
Cheers
Reto

Reto,

I refer you to ANC-18, "Design of Wood Aircraft Structures". It contains two sets of strength tables, one for use in temperate climes where the wood equilibrium moisture content is 15% and one for tropical where the moisture content stabilizes at 20%. "This moisture content represents an equilibrium with high relative humidity, approximately 90% or over, corresponding to conditions in tropical areas where high humidity is prevalent for long periods of time or more or less continuously." - ANC-18. Various sources say a wood moisture content below 20% will not support fungal growth. I believe your climate controlled shop will be sufficient, even ideal for building with no concerns about protecting the wood from fungus. You could probably save some money by running the air conditioning on a reduced schedule.

The storage of the wood structural parts in the kit is probably important in your case. Flat shelving that allows good air circulation would be helpful. It looks like you are coming along with your build just fine. Keep up the good work and thanks for the post.

Quoted from Bob Daly

Reto,

I refer you to ANC-18, "Design of Wood Aircraft Structures". It contains two sets of strength tables, one for use in temperate climes where the wood equilibrium moisture content is 15% and one for tropical where the moisture content stabilizes at 20%. "This moisture content represents an equilibrium with high relative humidity, approximately 90% or over, corresponding to conditions in tropical areas where high humidity is prevalent for long periods of time or more or less continuously." - ANC-18. Various sources say a wood moisture content below 20% will not support fungal growth. I believe your climate controlled shop will be sufficient, even ideal for building with no concerns about protecting the wood from fungus. You could probably save some money by running the air conditioning on a reduced schedule.

Bob
Thank you for your reply. My concern is that non-visible fungus/mould might have infested the wood during the 2 month high humidity/high temperature storage prior the start of the build. In the reference book "Wood building technique" they talk about possible fungi infestation leading to "dry rot" at a later stage. That's why I asked the specific questions above. Btw, the electricity bill is paid by my generous landlord... ;)

Quoted from aeronut

The storage of the wood structural parts in the kit is probably important in your case. Flat shelving that allows good air circulation would be helpful. It looks like you are coming along with your build just fine. Keep up the good work and thanks for the post.

Hi Aeronut
Shelving and wood turning is in progress.. We had the same thought.. :) Still not sure about anti-fungi treatment and Polyurethane coating though (questions above)..
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

Bob
Thank you for your reply. My concern is that non-visible fungus/mould might have infested the wood during the 2 month high humidity/high temperature storage prior the start of the build. In the reference book "Wood building technique" they talk about possible fungi infestation leading to "dry rot" at a later stage. That's why I asked the specific questions above. Btw, the electricity bill is paid by my generous landlord... ;)

Had a look at the reference manual ANC-18. Thank you for the "heads-up" regarding this document. Page 227 mentions the rot problem (specifically in the tropics). It doesn't mention a possible anti fungal treatment though.

You won't want to polyurethane any parts that will be glued. However you could use WEST System(tm) epoxy with the Special Coating Hardener to completely coat all componentsl. This would prevent warping and rot and you can sand it lightly wherever subsequent gluing will be needed and it will bond fine. If you do that you won't need any other fungal protection. For gluing I use the G/Flex epoxy by the same people who make the WEST System. This particular epoxy is very good at gluing parts in difficult situations.

Tom

It's my understanding that once properly dried and protected from direct, prolonged contact with liquid water, lumber in a tropical climate with average humidity near 90% reaches an equilibrium moisture content near 20%. And 20% moisture content is the threshold for fungi growth according to the US Forest Products Wood Handbook. My opinion is that two months at the threshold for fungi growth is not a concern. Use of a preservative may very well degrade the epoxy bonds and using a varnish will require sanding off the varnish from mating surfaces before gluing. Of course, once an assembly is completed it should be varnished.

Some kinds of anti-fungal treatments will definitely interfere with bonding.

Tom

Hi Reto,
The project is looking good.. BTW, It was my concerned too especially in tropic country like Philippines..I did applied wood preservatives followed with polyurethane varnish after assemblies.
Phil

Quoted from Bob Daly

It's my understanding that once properly dried and protected from direct, prolonged contact with liquid water, lumber in a tropical climate with average humidity near 90% reaches an equilibrium moisture content near 20%. And 20% moisture content is the threshold for fungi growth according to the US Forest Products Wood Handbook. My opinion is that two months at the threshold for fungi growth is not a concern. Use of a preservative may very well degrade the epoxy bonds and using a varnish will require sanding off the varnish from mating surfaces before gluing. Of course, once an assembly is completed it should be varnished.

Thank you for the additional input. As my workshop has a good climate, I will apply protection after finishing the Max.

Quoted from Tom

Some kinds of anti-fungal treatments will definitely interfere with bonding.

Tom

Tom, your glue and protection process seems to be a good way forward. Unfortunately we have great difficulties importing any chemical products into Thailand. The only glue I have at hand is T88. Thanks for the input.
Reto

Quoted from Phil

Hi Reto,
The project is looking good.. BTW, It was my concerned too especially in tropic country like Philippines..I did applied wood preservatives followed with polyurethane varnish after assemblies.
Phil

Dear Phil
Only now I realize that we must have been neighbours in the Philippines (I am a bit slow at times.. ;)). Have you been member of ACFC? Thank you for your input, will do the same regarding the treatment.
If I may ask, what kind of Max did you build and where have you been living?
Reto[/quote]

Reto,
No, I'm not a ACFC member but flown their ultralight twice as checkrides before I made the maiden of Rans S-12 I assembled for a friend in our place in Ozamiz City which I lived. The original T.E.A.M. ultralight miniMAX 1989 Model. Plans-build with rotax 277 on it. .but awaits to be airborne ;)
Regards,
Phil

Dear Reto,
Your local distributor/retailer for WEST System(tm) Products is:
East Marine Co. Ltd.
23/159 Moo 2
Tambon Koh Kae
Phuket 83200
info@eastmarineasia.com
http://www.eastmarineasia.com

The person in charge, I think, is Scott Bradley. This is their central address but I think they have stores all over Thailand. Don't be put off by the fact that this is a marine outfit, rather than an aircraft one. Burt Rutan recommends WEST System epoxy products for building his amateur buildable designs and his company Scaled Composites uses the same company's Pro-Set line of post cure heat treated epoxy for their prototype aircraft and spacecraft. WEST System and G/Flex are also sold by Aircraft Spruce. I have used these products since 1977 and highly recommend them. I am not affiliated in any way with the manufacturers or distributors of these products, though I have corresponded with them on many occasions and supplied technical literature to various people connected with the company and its products.

Tom

Quoted from Phil

Dear Phil
Only now I realize that we must have been neighbours in the Philippines (I am a bit slow at times.. ;)). Have you been member of ACFC? Thank you for your input, will do the same regarding the treatment.
If I may ask, what kind of Max did you build and where have you been living?
Reto

Reto,
No, I'm not a ACFC member but flown their ultralight twice as checkrides before I made the maiden of Rans S-12 I assembled for a friend in our place in Ozamiz City which I lived. The original T.E.A.M. ultralight miniMAX 1989 Model. Plans-build with rotax 277 on it. .but awaits to be airborne ;)
Regards,
Phil[/quote]

Phil
What a story! I lived at the lake of Taal. When will she fly?
Regards
Reto

Quoted from Tom

Dear Reto,
Your local distributor/retailer for WEST System(tm) Products is:
East Marine Co. Ltd.
23/159 Moo 2
Tambon Koh Kae
Phuket 83200
info@eastmarineasia.com
http://www.eastmarineasia.com

The person in charge, I think, is Scott Bradley. This is their central address but I think they have stores all over Thailand. Don't be put off by the fact that this is a marine outfit, rather than an aircraft one. Burt Rutan recommends WEST System epoxy products for building his amateur buildable designs and his company Scaled Composites uses the same company's Pro-Set line of post cure heat treated epoxy for their prototype aircraft and spacecraft. WEST System and G/Flex are also sold by Aircraft Spruce. I have used these products since 1977 and highly recommend them. I am not affiliated in any way with the manufacturers or distributors of these products, though I have corresponded with them on many occasions and supplied technical literature to various people connected with the company and its products.

Tom

Dear Tom
Thank you for your great input and contacts in Thailand. As I understand you prefer West system epoxy over T88. What are the main advantages of G/Flex epoxy compared to T88?
Regards
Reto

Dear members
Had a productive day today.
One more question appeared though:
By glueing the next rib I realized that the 1/4 x 1/4" cap stick vary greatly in size.
Actually they vary mainly in the width of the cut sides which in turn makes it a bit difficult to glue the gussets flat in place.
The first 5 ribs I have build always with the cut side on top (and down), showing the grain structure (see below picture).
Now I wonder, if I should have always glued the ribs with the flat side on top and down.
Or doesn't it matter at all?
In one of the wing drawing details it shows the cut side on top too...
Sorry for the complicated way explaining. The picture might make my question more clear.
Thank you
Reto

Dear Reto,
I have private messaged you on epoxy products. I can only say what I recommend and discuss characteristics of recommended products. I am not saying that I don't recommend T-88.
Tom

Here we have over 90% humidity in winter, took me more than 6 years to finish my plane, I epoxy varnished every piece so moisture and fungus will never enter the wood.

Quoted from Ricardo

Here we have over 90% humidity in winter, took me more than 6 years to finish my plane, I epoxy varnished every piece so moisture and fungus will never enter the wood.

Dear Ricardo
She looks absolutely stunning.. If not too much of hassle, perhaps you got some more shots from different angels.. ;) It's a great motivation to see her structure beautifully finished.. Thank you for sharing..
Cheers
Reto

Reto:
I used a local epoxy varnish that you should be able to find in your area. That kind of product will last you a life time. It is compatible with T-88.
For covering the plane,I used the Stewart syatem and I sanded off fhe epoxy surfaces on the areas where the Stewart glue had to be applied.
Here's some more shots of the "naked" plane.

Ricardo,

Beautiful work.

Tom

Quoted from Ricardo

Reto:
I used a local epoxy varnish that you should be able to find in your area. That kind of product will last you a life time. It is compatible with T-88.
For covering the plane,I used the Stewart syatem and I sanded off fhe epoxy surfaces on the areas where the Stewart glue had to be applied.
Here's some more shots of the "naked" plane.

Dear Ricardo
Thank you very much for sharing the pictures. What a beautiful work you have done. Considering doing the same, but will use Poly-Fiber products. There is just enough stock of Poly-Fiber in the country to cover 1 plane... :)
Kind regards
Reto

Dear members
Apologies for posting again a question I had a few days ago... :)

By glueing the next rib I realized that the 1/4 x 1/4" cap stick vary greatly in size and dimension.
Actually they vary mainly in width of the cut sides, which in turn makes it a bit difficult to glue the gussets flat in place.
The first 5 ribs I have build always with the cut side on top (and down), showing the grain structure (see below picture).
Now I wonder, if I should have always glued the ribs with the flat side on top and down (different grain structure, but mainly same width).
Or doesn't it matter at all which way to glue?
In one of the wing drawing details, it shows the cut side on top too (same as my glueing)...
Sorry for the complicated way explaining. The picture might make my question more clear.

Thank you for inputs.
Reto

It does not matter which way the grain is oriented. Try to make the surfaces even so the gussets lie flat. The epoxy will fill a gap so it is not at all critical.

Quoted from Bob Daly

It does not matter which way the grain is oriented. Try to make the surfaces even so the gussets lie flat. The epoxy will fill a gap so it is not at all critical.

Thank you Bob
That is reassuring... :)
Did exactly that...

I second Bob's comment about the grain orientation not being critical. I had the same concerns and somehere, maybe here or possibly on another forum, someone linked what I recall to be a EAA tech article stating the grain can be oriented horizontally or vertically. So, per that, for what it's worth, is more reassurance for you.

Lynn

Reto, I had the same problem. What I did was to try match up the pieces as I was building each rib. one rib might be a tiny bit wider than others. the main thing is that there pretty flat for the gussets. look at the bright side!! you don't have that problem on the other side!!! Its gets a lot easier as you go, and just when you get it figured out your on your number 24

Quoted from lake_harley

I second Bob's comment about the grain orientation not being critical. I had the same concerns and somehere, maybe here or possibly on another forum, someone linked what I recall to be a EAA tech article stating the grain can be oriented horizontally or vertically. So, per that, for what it's worth, is more reassurance for you.

Lynn

Dear Lynn

Thank you for the additional feedback.

My main concern was/is 2-fold:
1. Gusset glueing (uneven surface), which we solved with mix and match...
2. Grain direction on outer cap sticks (pre-curved one), in my opinion it really does make a difference which way the outer cap stick's grain is oriented. Bending with the grain seems much more logical than bending "vertical" oriented grain. For compression stress with inner sticks I would agree that it doesn't matter.

I will continue (like on the picture) glueing all sticks with grain direction visible...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

No apologies, They got off track looking at Ricardos beautiful plane in stick form and forgot
to answer your question. I am not a builder but I would agree with Bob above. Personally I
(if building) would rather see the gussets lying flat and know I got a good evenly distributed
bond. The slight width differences that now would cause a slight difference in the (height) of
each rib would seem to be insignificant in the (big picture). I guess you could clamp a bunch
of finished ribs together with the bottoms all lined up perfectly and carefully sand of some material
from the tops to make them all even by running past a belt sander, but I am not sure even
that matters. Would you really even notice on a covered wing that one or another rib is maybe
taller by a 1/16th of an inch from the one in the next bay? I doubt it. Plus it's not an F-14 fighter
either (LOL). Hopefully that's about the MAXIMUM differences in width (height)we are talking
about anyway. Seems obvious right from the start that you are very detail oriented. That's
going to be a good thing and I am sure in no time you will be posting some photos as
Ricardo has :) Hopefully you will have time to look over this boards older threads and
find or decide what small modifications you might think you would like while you are in the
building process. Some things that I have written about & have been talked about and think
are worthy of thinking about might be.......
separate right & left brakes instead of the single brake lever.
Dis-connectable and even separate cables from your pedals to your rudder and tail wheel.
Elimination of the single side rod that controls the tail wheel in favor of springs and chains on two sides.
A SOLID non teleflex elevator control rod. (or there are some designs that have used control horns
and various pivot points and linkages.
These are just a few to think about if you have not already. You can find threads on all of these things
here on this board if you do some searching. Of course you might as well know right now, anytime
you bring up making any changes to the bird you will be getting a lot of posts that tell you to just
stick to the plans. And that's TRUE for the most part. But there is always room for improvement &
you can find many that have done these (improvements) and are very satisfied with the results. TTT

Dear TTT

Thank you for your detailed reply.
Yes, I got pleasantly distracted too by Ricardo's beautiful pictures... :)

Regarding the ribs:
It wasn't so much of my concern deviating from outer rib dimension.
My main concern was/is 2-fold:
1. Gusset glueing (uneven surface when stick grain visible), which we solved with mix and match...
2. Grain direction on outer cap sticks (bottom and pre-curved one). In my very humble opinion it really does make a difference which way the outer cap stick's grain is oriented. Bending with the grain seems much more logical than bending against "vertical" oriented grain. For compression stress with inner sticks I agree that it doesn't matter.

Regarding improvements:
I share your opinion that any modification which ads to safety is worthwhile considering. Thank you for taking up my earlier question regarding this. By no means it was my intention to suggest the MM is weak or unsafe. It is just a gut feeling that a heavy Eros is much more exposed to stress at certain (attachment) points than the earlier much lighter versions. It looks to me that there has been done very little strengthening (if any) for example where the stabilizer is attached to the fuselage (I didn't have the opportunity to compare for example 1100R plans with Eros plans)

Bob did a quick calculation and confirmed the load has increased from 220lbs to 300lbs which is about 1/3. There is still a long way to 500lbs (gussets shear strength). Therefore I will pay extra care/attention to those areas.

Thank you for mentioning other areas of interest which have been discussed. I certainly will look them up in the forum to gather more information...

Have a good day!
Reto

Quoted from superswamper

Reto, I had the same problem. What I did was to try match up the pieces as I was building each rib. one rib might be a tiny bit wider than others. the main thing is that there pretty flat for the gussets. look at the bright side!! you don't have that problem on the other side!!! Its gets a lot easier as you go, and just when you get it figured out your on your number 24

Dear Superswamper

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement... :)
Rib #6 is almost done. Just hoping that towards #24 I am not running out of width-matching sticks...
And yes, the glass is "half full" by the fact "that the other side is flat" ...
"Happy" you were suffering with me... ;)

Cheers
Reto

Reto, I agree with you on grain orientation on the upper and lower cap strips, I did mine the same way. I tried to use all the larger pieces for the caps. My kit was done by John Grabber when it was JDT, I think he cut and planed all the material himself, but I might be mistaken. Not sure how David does it. When I first started I found out the worst mistake you can make is over clamping the material and starving the glue joint. (very important) Do a search on PVC pipe clamps, those things work perfect, you can make a bunch of them for next to nothing. I made some out of 4" and 3" pipe, saves you a ton of money on clamps. And your going to need a bunch of them on your fuse. And they can get into tight places. Jim

One other thing you guys were talking about t-88 great stuff. The one problem that I have had is that once the hardener is opened and sits for a few months it turns darker in color, once this happens it takes a lot longer for it to cure. I have glued up pieces and three days later they still felt a little tacky. They eventually harden, but once this happens I always tossed it and bought some more. You got to be careful were you order it from because if it sits on the shelf for a long period of time it could come that way. The first sub kit I got the glue was that way because it was old, thought I was doing something wrong so I ordered a new batch from aircraft spruce big difference! rock hard the next day. If you guys read this and I'm wrong please correct me, this is just my experience here in Florida with very high humidity. Jim

Quoted from superswamper

One other thing you guys were talking about t-88 great stuff. The one problem that I have had is that once the hardener is opened and sits for a few months it turns darker in color, once this happens it takes a lot longer for it to cure. I have glued up pieces and three days later they still felt a little tacky. They eventually harden, but once this happens I always tossed it and bought some more. You got to be careful were you order it from because if it sits on the shelf for a long period of time it could come that way. The first sub kit I got the glue was that way because it was old, thought I was doing something wrong so I ordered a new batch from aircraft spruce big difference! rock hard the next day. If you guys read this and I'm wrong please correct me, this is just my experience here in Florida with very high humidity. Jim

Dear Jim
Great input regarding the T88, clamps and over-clamping. Thank you. I try to have both sides of any two pieces covered with epoxy and wait for a little while before I clamp or staple them. The wood seems to absorb quite a bit. The T88 I use seems to be Ok, but I noticed lately a thin dark brown layer forming in the hardener bottle. In the workshop I keep the humidity around 50% and it looks like the epoxy bonds well under these conditions. As soon I got "stickiness" I will discharge the "off" epoxy too.
Have a good day.
Cheers
Reto

Just working from memory here (dangerous : ) Doesnt it say somewhere that T-88 may darken,but is no big deal?
The stiky-ness you mention was likely "Amine blush"(common in high humidity), and again, no big deal.

For those who might wish to use Gougeon Brothers, Inc. products such as the WEST System(tm) line of epoxy products and their G/Flex epoxy. Without comparing it in any way with T-88 I can say that the hardeners for the WEST System(tm) do tend to darken over time. However the structural properties of WEST System products do not change over quite long periods of time measured in years. I know this from personal experience and from tests which the manufacturer has done on old batches of their products kept for long periods specifically for testing. I can definitely recommend WEST System(tm) for projects that continue over longer periods of time.

Tom

Trying to get rid of an annoying cold, but making some progress...
- Started rib #7
- Horizontal stabilizer ready for glueing
- Received Rac T2-7A trim system :)
- 130 hrs into the build
Made simple shear and brake tests with cut off wood parts. My T88 seems to be fine (wood always brakes first).
Cheers
Reto

Dear forum members
One of my previous questions was related to the area of hinge/bracket attachment with the vertical stabilizer (#14-61).
I just came across a MM "AD" which shows that there were concerns in that area from the Team MM too.
In the AD the hinge attachment has moved further up.
The 2 corner blocks I glued in are re-enforcing both sides, above and below the horizontal rib.
Not sure if this "AD" is known to the forum members as nobody has mentioned it.
The "AD" is attached below.
Cheers
Reto

Reto that is correct, attachment point for brace stays to the plans, but you move the hinge up to dimension shown on addendum. I got this with my plans several years back. Jim

Quoted from superswamper

Reto that is correct, attachment point for brace stays to the plans, but you move the hinge up to dimension shown on addendum. I got this with my plans several years back. Jim

Dear Jim
Thank you for your reply.
Got it from Team MM by e-mail. It's not reflected in the hard copies of my plans.

Question:
Did you guys incorporate some or all of the UK 91 modifications?

- LAA-186-001 issue 2: Seat belt attachment
- LAA-186-002 issue 2: Firewall
- LAA-186-003 issue 2: Turtle deck/roll-over protection
- LAA-186-004 issue 2: Locking pin retention
- LAA-186-005 issue 2: Flying control system improvements
- LAA-186-006: Fuel system improvements
- LAA-186-007: Wing forward strut reinforcements (91 version)
- LAA-186-008:Undercarriage reinforcement (only required if max gross weight 590 lb)
- LAA-186-009 issue 2: Shoulder harness cables

Kind regards
Reto

Back building, quite happy about that...

Quick question:
It is not very clear to me where to bevel (see picture below)...
Thank you for inputs
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

Back building, quite happy about that...

Quick question:
It is not very clear to me where to bevel (see picture below)...
Thank you for inputs
Reto

Reto,
Bevel the plywood on the leading edge only. The other areas you show should be rounded off to smooth the transition from the plywood to the fabric.
Dick

Quoted from Dick Rake

Reto,
Bevel the plywood on the leading edge only. The other areas you show should be rounded off to smooth the transition from the plywood to the fabric.
Dick

Thank you Dick, clear now.. :)

Enjoying building, making progress.. :)

Excellent Workmanship !!

Looking great Reto! Thank you for keeping us posted on your work. I think I can speak for many of us in saying that we enjoy following your build, keep up the progress!

-Sean

Merry Christmas to all of you!
Will build elevator trim system and start fuselage next week...

Finally, got the trim system done..
Question: Is 1 inch deflection up/down adequate?

Cleaning the workshop (what a mess) was kinda liberating.
Tomorrow start of new chapter: Fuselage

Dear members

Question:
Is 1 inch trim tab deflection up/down appropriate to gain adequate trim authority?

Thank you
Reto

Seems ok with such a big surface you have...

I don't think you will ever need any DOWN trim..

Dear Reto,

This is very beautiful looking work.

Tom

Dear forum members
I will soon cover the two fuselage sides with Mahogany plywood and wondering if it might be better to do it:
- After the fuselage sides are glued together in the final curved shape (suggested earlier by some forum members)...
- Before bending the sides (suggested in the building manual)...
Any inputs?
Thanks
Reto

I think you need more than 1 inch down movement on your trim. The elevator isn't balance so you will need a good amount of down just to hold the elevator up just for level flight. I made my per the flight manual and started with 10° per the manual and I had to bend it to 20° to just take the stick pressure off and I have the light tail. Now if you plan on using a spring or bundge cord to hold your elevator up then you can get buy with less trim. Just my 3 cents.

Tom

Not sure but did we not learn that you could put more washers under the tail in the rear,to trim it out for level flight? :-/

Quoted from Harless Greear

I don't think you will ever need any DOWN trim..

Hi Harless

May I ask, is the above statement based on your own flying experience?
I was hoping to have a setting with neutral trim in cruise, T/O down trim and approach up trim, like most other airplanes...
Springs attached to the stick base could be used to help to define a neutral position and generate some generic feel (resistance)...
Is that how the MM can be flown?

Thank you and regards
Reto

Quoted from pkoszegi

Seems ok with such a big surface you have...

Hi pkoszegi

Thank you for your comment.
I am very curious to see how the MM behaves...

Regards
Reto

Quoted from Tom

Dear Reto,

This is very beautiful looking work.

Tom

Hi Tom

Thank you, not much to see yet... :)

Regards
Reto

Quoted from tjspindler

I think you need more than 1 inch down movement on your trim. The elevator isn't balance so you will need a good amount of down just to hold the elevator up just for level flight. I made my per the flight manual and started with 10° per the manual and I had to bend it to 20° to just take the stick pressure off and I have the light tail. Now if you plan on using a spring or bundge cord to hold your elevator up then you can get buy with less trim. Just my 3 cents.

Tom

Hi Tom

Interesting point you make.
If W&B is done correct and the horizontal stabilizer is set up per design, it's hard to believe that such amount of trim will be required. That would imply that something is wrong with the design...
By changing the trim horn I obviously can change the deflection up to about 2 inch.
Never seen any aircraft flying around like this though...
I am planning to use springs on the stick.

Tnx & regards
Reto

Quoted from maxpayne

Not sure but did we not learn that you could put more washers under the tail in the rear,to trim it out for level flight? :-/

Hi maxpayne

That would make sense to me..
Might be difficult to fabricate a wedge type strip of material to support the tail section equally on the fuselage tail area.
Wouldn't just washers create damage/stress?
Does every MM model need such a procedure?

Tnx & regards
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

Dear forum members
I will soon cover the two fuselage sides with Mahogany plywood and wondering if it might be better to do it:
- After the fuselage sides are glued together in the final curved shape (suggested earlier by some forum members)...
- Before bending the sides (suggested in the building manual)...
Any inputs?
Thanks
Reto

Glueing the plywood with side sections flat on working bench (per manual)...
Just read the "drama" of Ari's fuselage (described quite a while ago)...
http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1185574047/s-210/

Anybody?
Tnx
Reto

I glued the ply onto the side structures while flat on the workbench. I was familiar with the drama you mentioned, used a little extra care, and it would appear all went well with bending the nose in, as well as bending and gluing the bottom ply. On the bottom ply, which caused me more concern, I used a LOT of staples and weighted it all down with about 60 or 80# of World Book Encyclopedias :)

Lynn

I built a similar trim as yours, is operated by a Ray Allen electric control that has a position light on the instrument pannel.
The trim is very useful if you like to fly at different speeds. The W&B in my plane came perfect with the battery up front.
If you can operate it manually will be less complicated (many wires have to go all the way to the tail).
The deflection angle on the trim is always very little but the effect is also very noticeable.
You're doing a great job!

Reto,

Ive never used any down trim.. Even when my CG was near the aft limit.. I use up trim for take off and climb out and then back to almost neutral for cruise.. To decend i just pull the power back for the proper FPM. Then I trim up for final approach speed and control decent with the throttle..

keep in mind that each Max is a little different and you will have to usse the trial and error method to know for sure what you need..

The spring works well too, I used to have one but I wanted a tab on the elevator so I might have a better chance to land if my elevator cable should ever fail.. (murphy's law)

Quoted from lake_harley

I glued the ply onto the side structures while flat on the workbench. I was familiar with the drama you mentioned, used a little extra care, and it would appear all went well with bending the nose in, as well as bending and gluing the bottom ply. On the bottom ply, which caused me more concern, I used a LOT of staples and weighted it all down with about 60 or 80# of World Book Encyclopedias :)

Lynn

Hi Lynn

Thank you, will proceed similarly except the Encyclopaedia part... :) :)

Reto

Quoted from Ricardo

I built a similar trim as yours, is operated by a Ray Allen electric control that has a position light on the instrument pannel.
The trim is very useful if you like to fly at different speeds. The W&B in my plane came perfect with the battery up front.
If you can operate it manually will be less complicated (many wires have to go all the way to the tail).
The deflection angle on the trim is always very little but the effect is also very noticeable.
You're doing a great job!

Hi Ricardo

Thank you for the encouragement.
I use the same trim system.

What is your flying experience, are you using control stick springs in any form?
I was hoping to have a setting with neutral trim in cruise, T/O down trim and approach up trim, like most other airplanes...
Springs attached to the stick base could be used to help to define a neutral position and generate some generic feel (resistance)...
Is that how your MM behaves?

Thank you as always
Reto

Quoted from Harless Greear

Reto,

Ive never used any down trim.. Even when my CG was near the aft limit.. I use up trim for take off and climb out and then back to almost neutral for cruise.. To decend i just pull the power back for the proper FPM. Then I trim up for final approach speed and control decent with the throttle..

keep in mind that each Max is a little different and you will have to usse the trial and error method to know for sure what you need..

The spring works well too, I used to have one but I wanted a tab on the elevator so I might have a better chance to land if my elevator cable should ever fail.. (murphy's law)

Hi Harless

Thank you for further explaining your setting.
Did you initially use only one spring to aid back pressure on the stick (and now replaced by trim tab)?

Regards
Reto

RETO,

Actually I didn't use a spring, I used a small Bungee cord........

The spring going from tailwheel to elev horn works good. I like how the kitfox trims the hole elev.

Quoted from Harless Greear

RETO,

Actually I didn't use a spring, I used a small Bungee cord........

I also have a bungee to easy the tail load on the stick . Mini Max tails are heavy.

Not trying to hijack here but what is that peice of metal going from landing gear to landing gear? Is this a himax? That bungie cord will not help if the elevator cable breaks, but a spring on the tail to tail wheel may, and helps with the heavy elev.

Quoted from maxpayne

Not trying to hijack here but what is that peice of metal going from landing gear to landing gear? Is this a himax? That bungie cord will not help if the elevator cable breaks, but a spring on the tail to tail wheel may, and helps with the heavy elev.

Max : That metal piece is part of the metal landing gear option. Thanks for the comments on the bungee not helping in a broken cable situation. ANy pictures how to set the spring on the tail?

Quoted from Harless Greear

RETO,

Actually I didn't use a spring, I used a small Bungee cord........

Just wondering, for example during T/O, if you would let go the stick, wouldn't there be an enormous pitch up motion? Do I understand right, that you have to maintain forward pressure until the cruise, where the bungee cord will create kinda neutral force (level flight)?
Thank you for clarifying.
Reto

Quoted from maxpayne

The spring going from tailwheel to elev horn works good. I like how the kitfox trims the hole elev.

Would you have a picture of that set up?
Thank you.
Reto

Ricardo I have not got my new camra yet so no photo. I bent a small peice of alum to 90 deg, up from the tail wheel.Then i ran a spring to the elv horn to the top of that alum, so it pulls the elv up at a better angle.I read my own post and it barly makes sence. :-/

Quoted from maxpayne

Not trying to hijack here but what is that peice of metal going from landing gear to landing gear? Is this a himax? That bungie cord will not help if the elevator cable breaks, but a spring on the tail to tail wheel may, and helps with the heavy elev.

This is a good point. To get redundancy, did someone install the dual elevator control modification (UK91)?
Thank you for further inputs.
Reto

Quoted from maxpayne

Ricardo I have not got my new camra yet so no photo. I bent a small peice of alum to 90 deg, up from the tail wheel.Then i ran a spring to the elv horn to the top of that alum, so it pulls the elv up at a better angle.I read my own post and it barly makes sence. :-/

:) You are right, now I am confused too. Wouldn't it pull the elevator down, if you are attaching a spring to the elevator horn from underneath?

Reto the spring is pulling the bottom of the horn aft, which lifts the elev. To get better mech advantage i bent a peice af alum up from tailwheel about 4".

Quoted from maxpayne

Reto the spring is pulling the bottom of the horn aft, which lifts the elev. To get better mech advantage i bent a peice af alum up from tailwheel about 4".

Ok, now i got it.. Thank you 'maxpayne' for this input.
Cheers, Reto

Side panels are ready for assembly.
UK 91 seatbelt attachment modification and metal landing gear option incorporated.
At the moment I can't import the engine due to political unrest in Thailand.
Therefore exact position of engine mount not yet known...
Bulkheads are next...
Started with Rib #14.
Cheers
Reto

Hi, I am in BKK at the moment. Much work importing the kit in? Is tax and duty a big issue? Looks very nice by the way.

Hi, Which engine you using in your Eros?

Quoted from Ultramax

Hi, Which engine you using in your Eros?

Hi Ultramax
I am using a Hirth 3202V engine which has just arrived...
Importing into Thailand is not such a big issue as long you use a Thai consignee and you import a kit (not single parts)...
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Reto

Finally back building. The engine was delayed. Now nose section and engine mount for Hirth engine is adjusted. Next will be pulling the nose together.
Cheers

PS
You can never have too many clamps...

WOW!! Clamps-r-us!!!!!!

Quoted from Reto S

Hi Ultramax
I am using a Hirth 3202V engine which has just arrived...
Importing into Thailand is not such a big issue as long you use a Thai consignee and you import a kit (not single parts)...
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Reto

That´s 55 HP plenty of HP for your Eros. Can´t wait to see it flying.

Quoted from Ricardo

That´s 55 HP plenty of HP for your Eros. Can´t wait to see it flying.

Hi Ricardo

Was quite a fiddle to get the engine mount right. Now it is very strong and the Hirth engine seems to fit...

Have a great day!
Reto

Since its a new engine I dont think you dare remove the fan and drive parts, but that thing on the back including the rope starter assembly is around 6 kgs. Its more than a big 17Ah battery weight.
I was really surprised when I got that off from my 2702.

CRIKEY..... thats alot of clamps....hope there is some glue is left in the joints.....to hold the plane together :o

Nice engine. :) :)

cheers Arthur

Quoted from pkoszegi

Since its a new engine I dont think you dare remove the fan and drive parts, but that thing on the back including the rope starter assembly is around 6 kgs. Its more than a big 17Ah battery weight.
I was really surprised when I got that off from my 2702.

Hi pkoszegi
Good idea, but unfortunately the fan is needed under the Eros cowling...
I am anyway too heavy for Thai UL registration.
Just learned that Experimental category in Thailand will finally require PPL...
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Arthur Withy

CRIKEY..... thats alot of clamps....hope there is some glue is left in the joints.....to hold the plane together :o

Nice engine. :) :)

cheers Arthur

I am a clamp addict with a gentle grip... :) :)
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from edwinkania

WOW!! Clamps-r-us!!!!!!

;D ... clamps are good for you!

Cheers
Reto

Bending went smooth...

Retro S... welcome to Thailand, this flight forum and to the MiniMax world... ;) I used to fly MM in Norway, but lives now in Thailand without aeroplane and with an expired pilot license.
Maybe I can do something with that later, but now is my time occupied with house building. Will follow your building tread and maybe we can meet one da. I live in Isan, amphur NanSom.
Good luck with your project.

Quoted from Knut A

Retro S... welcome to Thailand, this flight forum and to the MiniMax world... ;) I used to fly MM in Norway, but lives now in Thailand without aeroplane and with an expired pilot license.
Maybe I can do something with that later, but now is my time occupied with house building. Will follow your building tread and maybe we can meet one da. I live in Isan, amphur NanSom.
Good luck with your project.

Dear Knut
Thank you for your kind words.
Progress slowed down a bit, trying to catch up though... :)
Just managed to get PolyFiber covering products in (after 7 month of trying)... Happy!
Any time you are in Chiang Mai send PM...
Cheers
Reto

It won't be long now and you will be sitting in it on your work bench making airplane noises! Lol
Nice work and lots of power its going to climb like a Extra 300!

Tom

Yup lots of power but heat and humidity can be hard on density altitude. Do they have private airstrips in Thailand and or public use airports, is there much private aviation there??? I am showing my ignorance, please be kind.

Quoted from tjspindler

It won't be long now and you will be sitting in it on your work bench making airplane noises! Lol
Nice work and lots of power its going to climb like a Extra 300!

Tom

Hi Tom
If you believe it or not, I already made engine noises, even the fuselage is still up side down... ;D
Power might be just enough to get off the ground... 8)
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from aeronut

Yup lots of power but heat and humidity can be hard on density altitude. Do they have private airstrips in Thailand and or public use airports, is there much private aviation there??? I am showing my ignorance, please be kind.

Hi aeronut
Luckily Chiang Mai has only 3 "hot" month (FEB/MAR/APR), otherwise temperatures are quite pleasant. Humidity is rather low too...
There are both private and public airstrips. Private airstrips are either certified for UL and/or LSA & GA usage.
The license situation is Microlight or UL require UL license, LSA or GA require PPL.
The flying community is very small compared to western countries.
Cheers
Reto

Gents
Lot's of distraction (mainly health related)... But finally got back in the workshop... Didn't realize how much I actually missed building... Router action was a mess, but all went fine... Tomorrow I will turn the fuselage and continue with the upper part...
Cheers
Reto

Looking good. I hope the health thing is getting better.

Quoted from aeronut

Looking good. I hope the health thing is getting better.

Hi aeronut
The build is a great motivation...
Thank you for your encouragement.
Cheers
Reto

Progressing, slowly but steadily... :)
The whole Hirth conversion was quite a fiddle...
Now engine fits well...
Cheers

Reto,

Do keep posting pictures. She's looking really great. You can tell she's being built with care.

Tom

Excellent!!! Keep up the great work.

Workmanship looks top shelf. Speaking of shelf, I find it interesting how you lowered the engine "shelf" to allow the "up" oriented gearbox while (I suppose?) keeping the thrust line in the proper vertical plane as intended. Doing something like that to accomodate my 277 Rotax that had the "up" gearbox would have saved me many hours of stress and tinkering to get a belt reduction unit sorted. That's providing I have it sorted as well as I hope I do.

Keep up the beautiful work, and get/stay healthy!

Lynn

Great ! That will be an awesome plane !

Quoted from Tom

Reto,

Do keep posting pictures. She's looking really great. You can tell she's being built with care.

Tom

Dear Tom

Thank you for the kind words. Trying... :)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from JonF

Excellent!!! Keep up the great work.

Hi Jon

Thank you for your encouragement!
Building her is very rewarding...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from lake_harley

Workmanship looks top shelf. Speaking of shelf, I find it interesting how you lowered the engine "shelf" to allow the "up" oriented gearbox while (I suppose?) keeping the thrust line in the proper vertical plane as intended. Doing something like that to accomodate my 277 Rotax that had the "up" gearbox would have saved me many hours of stress and tinkering to get a belt reduction unit sorted. That's providing I have it sorted as well as I hope I do.

Keep up the beautiful work, and get/stay healthy!

Lynn

Dear Lynn

Thank you for your kind words.
Frustratingly, I can't put as much time and energy into the building as I wished...

The wooden engine mount had to be extended by about 1 inch and lowered by about 1 1/2 inch. As you mentioned the trust line is exactly where originally designed. Furthermore the engine mount is strengthen within and from below. Because of weight and balance, I moved the battery pack location as far back as possible.

I am sure your arrangement will work beautifully, because you must have put lots of thinking into it too... :-)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from pkoszegi

Great ! That will be an awesome plane !

Still a long way, but the journey is rewarding already... :)

Cheers
Reto

It looks like you are coming along fantastic; I can not wait to see the grin on your face after the first flight. Best wishes. :)

Quoted from aeronut

It looks like you are coming along fantastic; I can not wait to see the grin on your face after the first flight. Best wishes. :)

Dear aeronut

Thank you for your kind and reassuring words!
Appreciated!

Cheers
Reto

Awesome Work Reto !!, Thanks for the Coffee, wife liked the flowers to !

Quoted from theecoop

Awesome Work Reto !!, Thanks for the Coffee, wife liked the flowers to !

Trying... ;)
Thank you David!

Regular consumption will catapult you to new heights of activities and success, the aroma will be stronger if you grind the beans quite fine...

Cheers
Reto

Horizontal stabilizer attachment points:

Dear forum members

During installation, I realized that the actual situation is quite different compared to the drawing on MM plan page 13.
I re-measured dimensions of the existing structure. All Ok...
Luckily I made the corner blocks 1 inch longer, therefore the forward bracket holes will be well within the wood of the blocks.

Question
I am still wondering, if "my arrangement" might be statically weaker and why the plans are quite off...

Picture 1
Actual situation

Picture 2
Plan reference, MM page 13

Picture 3
Ricardo's MM (comparison)

Thank you for comments/inputs...
Cheers
Reto

The loads on the horizontal tail spar are much greater than the loads applied at the horizontal tail leading edge. The struts from the fin transfer the vertical tail loads to the spar and the spar is sized to take those loads plus the tail-down load and also an asymmetric tail load of 100% of the 4g load on one side and 50% on the other. We can tell this not only by inspecting the tail strut geometry but also by looking at the bearing blocks glued to the longerons at the attachment points. Notice that the rear blocks have their grain oriented running vertically so that they bear the stress from the bolts parallel to their grain which is about ten times stronger that bearing perpendicular to the grain like in the forward blocks. Long story short, your fine. I think this is one of those spots on the plans where the drawing is not precise because the critical part is the rear spar attachment location. And adding the extra wood was good forethought.

Quoted from Bob Daly

The loads on the horizontal tail spar are much greater than the loads applied at the horizontal tail leading edge. The struts from the fin transfer the vertical tail loads to the spar and the spar is sized to take those loads plus the tail-down load and also an asymmetric tail load of 100% of the 4g load on one side and 50% on the other. We can tell this not only by inspecting the tail strut geometry but also by looking at the bearing blocks glued to the longerons at the attachment points. Notice that the rear blocks have their grain oriented running vertically so that they bear the stress from the bolts parallel to their grain which is about ten times stronger that bearing perpendicular to the grain like in the forward blocks. Long story short, your fine. I think this is one of those spots on the plans where the drawing is not precise because the critical part is the rear spar attachment location. And adding the extra wood was good forethought.

Dear Bob
Thank you for the excellent summary/analysis of the stabilizer load distribution.
It puts my mind at ease. It's great to see the MM safely growing piece by piece... :)
Cheers Bob and thank you again!
Reto

Forward turtle deck on
Engine cowling/spinner plate fitted, Hirth engine fits...  :)
Support brackets in place, horiz. stabilizer seems to be level and square...  :)

Wished I could dedicate more time and energy for the MM  :-/

You look like you are making great progress. Thanks for sharing your build with us. :)

Wow I did something wrong on that post. I tried to delete the second copy and only made a third copy. Hope you all will forgive my computer fumbling.

Lol.. Not a problem at all.. :)
Have a great day!
Reto

Project re-started after a 10 month brake. New work shop. Replacement landing gear fits. Happy.

Looking good. Having the gear on is a no turning back point. I am looking forward to seeing you in the covering phase of the project. Best wishes. :)

Hi Reto,
Looks good.  almost as complete as mine is.  I am planning to move to Nong Khai in a few years.  Was in Chiang Mai in January for a weekend.
How are you planning to register your plane? or are you going as an ultralight?  I am planning on bringing over a US registered plane so I don't have to deal with the restrictive ownership rules.
Do you have to file a flight plan for every flight there?  I've read something that suggests you do, but it didn't explicitly say that.

Steve

Quoted from Steve Paschke

Hi Reto,
Looks good.  almost as complete as mine is.  I am planning to move to Nong Khai in a few years.  Was in Chiang Mai in January for a weekend.
How are you planning to register your plane? or are you going as an ultralight?  I am planning on bringing over a US registered plane so I don't have to deal with the restrictive ownership rules.
Do you have to file a flight plan for every flight there?  I've read something that suggests you do, but it didn't explicitly say that.

Steve

Hi Steve
The ownership rule is a headache, but got a Thai (pilot) friend who will do it. Regarding registration still not decided yet. Flight plans are mandatory for each flight (U/L & G/A)... We could do a formation flight...
Cheers, Reto

Dear forum members

I ve'got a question regarding the rear turtle deck:
F4 & F5 (picture 1) should be installed forward of station 5 respectively 6 (picture 2).
Forward of this stations are ply wood gussets installed (picture 3).
The gussets interfere with the overlapping installation of F4 & F5 on the cross member.

Could it be glued behind the cross member so the full width will be available for glueing?

Thank you for inputs.

Cheers
Reto

Nice built, your thread is an inspiration I need to get my first kit ordered so i can start creating mine.

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

Reto, I have not taken the time to look at the whole thread, But along with wishing your health issues can be overcome, And glad to see you back at the build....
Remember that you need to safety tie the carbs. and/or the carb. boots to make sure they don't vibrate and fall off while in flight. Don't know if the engine or air filters you have include this information as part of their (set up instructions). Just something I thought I would post/pass on, encase you didn't know about it. TTT

Hi Tom, thank you for your kind message. The carb. issue is of concern to me and your suggestion will make them safely attached during operation. The manufacturer doesn't mention it. Cheers, Reto

Quoted from cdlwingnut

Nice built, your thread is an inspiration I need to get my first kit ordered so i can start creating mine.

Hi there, it is definitely a rewarding experience. I can only encourage you to do it... :)
Cheers, Reto

Quoted Text

F4 & F5 should be installed forward of station 5 respectively 6 (picture 2).. . . . .
Could it be glued behind the cross member so the full width will be available for glueing?

Hi Reto. Beautiful build - good you're back making sawdust and I hope you stay well.

To answer your question, I glued those frames behind the station for the reason you mention.

I also glued the brackets that support the stringers to the aft face of the frame, just because when you look down the inside of the fuselage from the cockpit, it looks neater - see attached pics.

Where did you buy your Hirth engine from? I may go this way if my old 503 looks a bit iffy when I come to inspect it.

Good luck with your build

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Hi Reto. Beautiful build - good you're back making sawdust and I hope you stay well.

To answer your question, I glued those frames behind the station for the reason you mention.

I also glued the brackets that support the stringers to the aft face of the frame, just because when you look down the inside of the fuselage from the cockpit, it looks neater - see attached pics.

Where did you buy your Hirth engine from? I may go this way if my old 503 looks a bit iffy when I come to inspect it.

Good luck with your build

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Thank you very much for your pictures and comment.

You have installed the F4/F5 bulkheads in the way I was intending to install them.
Your set up looks very neat indeed (speaking of beautiful build...) :)

Question:
Did you enlarge the bulkheads F4/F5 slightly, in order to install them sitting on the fuselage longeron ply?
Further more, I see the stringer attach plates are moved in, in order to have the stringers sitting on the bulkheads.
Certainly your arrangement adds maximum additional strength. Might order some ply and go the same route...

Regarding the Hirth conversion. The 3202 engine was ordered directly in the German factory (with factory support and test run). The conversion requires some adjustment being made to the engine mounting plate, position of the plate and nose section of the Eros (my pictures-reply in this forum #104/113/123).

On your picture it seems your elevator control system is realized via push/pull rod.
Contemplating since a long time about that...
I will incorporate all the MM91 UK modifications. One of the improvements is a dual cable elevator control system, but the push/pull rod would be so much easier and less fiddle. Where did you get the parts if I way ask?

Kind regards
Reto

Changed my mind, building a Hot Rod...

Hey Reto

No. I didn't enlarge the frames - that's how they were on my plans. And the stringer brackets finish in different positions relative to the outside curve of the frame depending on which frame you are looking at. The stringers are a straight line, the brackets are adjusted positionally to support them. Photo shows how my brackets are positioned on that particular frame.

As regards my pushrod control system, I made that system myself. I prefer pushrod & torque tube to cables, and the weight & cost penalty is very small, if any. You can see my thread on the pushrod controls here: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1430015479/

Other bits & pieces on my build generally here: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1409444380/

And if you're interested in lightweight Hoerner wingtips, you might like this thread: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1421190968/

By the way, that looks a nice MGBGT you have next to your plane. I've had a couple of those, and loved them. The last was an MGBGT-V8, with the 3.5litre V8 engine. That was lots of fun!

Bruce

Reto, forgot to thank you for your reply to my engine question . I will need to buy from Germany also as there are no Hirth dealers in Australia. Do you have contact details? I guess I can find them on the web easily.

Can you tell me why you went for the 3202 instead of the F23? I would be interested to hear how you get on with this engine: your installation looks very good. Although my engine bay is set up for the 503 I think I would accept the 1.5" raise to the thrust line, and tilt the nose fairings up slightly to accommodate the higher prop hub. My trim tab will handle the slight nose down effect of the thrust line change, and I'll have to see how the fairings look if I do go with this engine.

To answer you question on where I got the materials from for the pushrod system, they are all from Aircraft Spruce in America, with the exception of the pushrod tube & aileron pushrod tubing, which I bought locally (delivery costs to Australia for long lengths of tube are very high).

Cheers

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Hey Reto

No. I didn't enlarge the frames - that's how they were on my plans. And the stringer brackets finish in different positions relative to the outside curve of the frame depending on which frame you are looking at. The stringers are a straight line, the brackets are adjusted positionally to support them. Photo shows how my brackets are positioned on that particular frame.

As regards my pushrod control system, I made that system myself. I prefer pushrod & torque tube to cables, and the weight & cost penalty is very small, if any. You can see my thread on the pushrod controls here: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1430015479/

Other bits & pieces on my build generally here: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1409444380/

And if you're interested in lightweight Hoerner wingtips, you might like this thread: http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1421190968/

By the way, that looks a nice MGBGT you have next to your plane. I've had a couple of those, and loved them. The last was an MGBGT-V8, with the 3.5litre V8 engine. That was lots of fun!

Bruce

Good eve Bruce

I was browsing through your threads. I am humbled by your work. Incredible indeed. No other words.

Today I made dummy F4/F5 bulkheads. You are absolutely right with your comment. The stringers sit "naturally" close to the bulkhead edges and my "final" relative stringer position is identical to yours.

Seeing the complexity of your beautiful push rod system, I will follow the dual teleflex route (UK mod.). Wished though, I would have got your skill level and patience to do the rods too...

I am planning to install the drooped wingtips. Unfortunately they are quite heavy. Your Heorner tips look beautiful and light weight. Worth considering...

The yellow car is a MGC GT, straight 6, 3ltr. Was a complete wreck, but got it back to live and just passed Thai MOT. Still lots of work to do, but the grand old lady is smiling again after 15 years of total neglectance... My problem is: I can't do both at the same time (limited time/energy)...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Reto, forgot to thank you for your reply to my engine question . I will need to buy from Germany also as there are no Hirth dealers in Australia. Do you have contact details? I guess I can find them on the web easily.

Can you tell me why you went for the 3202 instead of the F23? I would be interested to hear how you get on with this engine: your installation looks very good. Although my engine bay is set up for the 503 I think I would accept the 1.5" raise to the thrust line, and tilt the nose fairings up slightly to accommodate the higher prop hub. My trim tab will handle the slight nose down effect of the thrust line change, and I'll have to see how the fairings look if I do go with this engine.

To answer you question on where I got the materials from for the pushrod system, they are all from Aircraft Spruce in America, with the exception of the pushrod tube & aileron pushrod tubing, which I bought locally (delivery costs to Australia for long lengths of tube are very high).

Cheers

Bruce

Bruce

The reason I went for the 3202 is several fold. It is the direct Hirth replacement for the Rotax 503 and has a very high TBO (1000hrs/75% power). The sleek cowling of the Eros could most probably not accommodate the F23. On other reason I went for the 3202 is the fact that it is actually a down rated version of the 3203 and therefore (hopefully) very robust. On top of that it has an option for an electric starter motor, which the F23 doesn't offer.

Otherwise I can't comment as I haven't got any experience with either type (Rotax/Hirth).
Hirth contact details will follow via PM.

I am very glad to know there is someone building an Eros at almost the same time...
Are you incorporating the UK modifications too (saw your seatbelt attachment...)?

Cheers
Reto

Quoted Text

Seeing the complexity of your push rod system, I will follow the dual teleflex route (UK mod.)

It's not really complex, or particularly difficult to make. I have no metal working machinery (lathe or mill) so everything is just made by hand, using drill press, hacksaw and hand files.

If the aileron bellcrank part seems too tricky, the elevator pushrod is very easy to make, though you will have to re-work the standard aileron quadrant to allow the pushrod to pass through it. I made a dummy plywood one to check my drawings of the cutout in the middle were correct.

And you can make an elevator pushrod system for less than the price of a second Teleflex cable (particularly if you can find some used hanglider tubing).

Wow, an MGCGT. I never drove one of those. Looks a beautiful restoration job. I guess you've had to inject the sills & other chassis items with Waxoyl or similar to guard against rust in your humid months? Most British Leyland cars in UK died of rust. I know because I was always the guy at the end of the chain who bought them last, just before they fell apart. But I loved the MG's. I had an MG Midget Mk 2 for 14 years; also an MGA. Best one was the BGT with the V8 though.

Quoted Text

I went for the 3202 (because) it is actually a down rated version of the 3203 and therefore (hopefully) very robust

Sounds good to me - rather a big lazy engine than a small buzzy one! I understand from those with experience in this area that the boxer format of an F23 is likely to vibrate a lot more than an inline layout. Although ISTR Bob Daly (I think it was him, sorry if I'm wrong) made his own mount for an F23 and said it ran very smoothly. But I'm guessing you'd need a more sophisticated setup than the standard 503/447 arrangement to achieve this.

Yes, I'm incorporating the UK mods. Seems sensible to take advantage of other peoples' experience.

Bruce

We made a complete inventory.
Now waiting for missing parts from Spruce and MM to continue.

In the mean time finished the flight controls.
Decided to use double elevator control cables arrangement (according UK mod.).
I am surprised how smooth the teleflex cables move.

Sat in the cockpit and made some aircraft noise... Nobody saw me...

Engine bay finished with side doublers. The Hirth engine has a new home (finally). Cowling fits, but modifications were required. Thank you Dremel!

Reto,

Really great looking work.\

Tom

Looks superb, Reto!

Bruce

Very Nice work indeed.....Well Done...superb

regards Arthur

Quoted from Tom

Reto,

Really great looking work.\

Tom

Hi Tom

Thank you for your kind words.
Wasn't easy to re-start the project after 12 month...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Looks superb, Reto!

Bruce

Bruce

Your amazing building effort is a huge motivation!

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Arthur Withy

Very Nice work indeed.....Well Done...superb

regards Arthur

Dear Arthur

Thank you for your encouragement.
I am really enjoying my time in the work shop.

Cheers
Reto

WOW that looks super; a man can never have too many clamps. :)

Quoted from aeronut

WOW that looks super; a man can never have too many clamps. :)

...well said aeronut and basic building rule #1! ;D

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from theecoop

Great Job Reto !!

... will see when she is finished, but thank you anyway David...

Cheers
Reto

Cowling finally fits nicely, hinges with carburettor support bracket installed, exhaust of Hirth aligned with 503 outlet...

Sofie's & Lilly-Boy's basic flight training..

Roll-over protection (UK mod.) similar to Bruce's arrangement.

Needed to order some ply.
Ended up with aircraft Mahogany ply (MIL-P-6070) from AS. Incredible quality!

Does anyone have experience with this type of ply?

Really good plywood can be essentially a work of art in itself. We see so much horrible stuff it's hard to believe how perfect the really good stuff can be. The top quality stuff is much stronger than the mediocre stuff too. It never really costs that much more.

Tom

Great job on the cowlings, Reto. Especially considering all the relocating work you had to do for a non standard engine. I'm looking at how much I'll have to do on the cowlings to fit a different engine, and it's a lot of work.

Have you looked into which propellor you will use for the Hirth?

Bruce

Quoted from Tom

Really good plywood can be essentially a work of art in itself. We see so much horrible stuff it's hard to believe how perfect the really good stuff can be. The top quality stuff is much stronger than the mediocre stuff too. It never really costs that much more.

Tom

Hi Tom
Couldn't agree more.
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Great job on the cowlings, Reto. Especially considering all the relocating work you had to do for a non standard engine. I'm looking at how much I'll have to do on the cowlings to fit a different engine, and it's a lot of work.

Have you looked into which propellor you will use for the Hirth?

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Yup, happy that at least the cowling is done...

Just a thought... there will be little margin to alter your trust line if your 503 engine support plate is installed (and you would like to use the original cowling). You might want to get all the technical drawings of the engines you consider and see which engine/gearbox combination will fit (the 503 is very compact compared to other engines). For the Hirth I had to extend the nose section because it needed to be installed at a min distance from the firewall for cooling fan air intake).

About a year ago I looked into the prop issue. Got so many different opinions regarding fixed pitch prop size/pitch that I finally went for a GSC-2 blade-wood prop with adjustable pitch.
It's beautifully done and has leading edge protection. The CNC machined hub is excellent.
http://www.ultralightprops.com/

Cheers
Reto

They look nice props. From Peter's experience it seems you need a fair bit of blade area to absorb all those lovely Hirth horsepower. Though I don't suppose you have to use all of them if you choose not to. I'll be very interested to hear how your system works later on.

My platform is already built to accept a 503, but is too high for the belt reduction drive MZ 201 I'm considering at the moment. The belt pulley centres are about 50mm further apart than the gear centres.

I have temporarily 'installed' the upper cowling, angled up to suit the MZ 201 thrust line. It doesn't look right, & I will have trouble extending the lower cowl by 2" to suit the higher prop centre.

So I am currently on the drawing board deciding the best way to lower the engine mount. It's fun this aircraft building, isn't it? :)

I am not concerned by the small difference in the thrust line as regards it's effect on flying. I very much doubt it will be noticeable. But the appearance is surprisingly a lot worse with the upper cowl tilted up. D'Oh!

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

They look nice props. From Peter's experience it seems you need a fair bit of blade area to absorb all those lovely Hirth horsepower. Though I don't suppose you have to use all of them if you choose not to. I'll be very interested to hear how your system works later on.

My platform is already built to accept a 503, but is too high for the belt reduction drive MZ 201 I'm considering at the moment. The belt pulley centres are about 50mm further apart than the gear centres.

I have temporarily 'installed' the upper cowling, angled up to suit the MZ 201 thrust line. It doesn't look right, & I will have trouble extending the lower cowl by 2" to suit the higher prop centre.

So I am currently on the drawing board deciding the best way to lower the engine mount. It's fun this aircraft building, isn't it? :)

I am not concerned by the small difference in the thrust line as regards it's effect on flying. I very much doubt it will be noticeable. But the appearance is surprisingly a lot worse with the upper cowl tilted up. D'Oh!

Bruce

Hi Bruce

I just came across my original Hirth & Rotax engine plate templates. Quite a difference...
Did you consider installation of gearbox and/or engine upside down? Might help.

The second pic is the GSC propeller hub.

Cheers
Reto

The clamp man did it again...

Rear turtle deck done..
Stringer curvature progressively less towards the top..

Look out Huns! The fabrics starting to go on!

Quoted from PUFF

Look out Huns! The fabrics starting to go on!

hahaha, that might still take a while, just put a cloth over it to check the shape...

Cheers, Reto

your work is so nice .. that last pic looks like a piece of artwork. very clean!!

Quoted from viktorvonragaman

your work is so nice .. that last pic looks like a piece of artwork. very clean!!

Thank you for your kind words, you should have seen the mess though during scratching all the glue off and the wood in shape with a cutter blade... :)

Cheers, Reto

That is great looking work. Hope you are able to continue your fantastic build. Thanks for posting. :)

Quoted from aeronut

That is great looking work. Hope you are able to continue your fantastic build. Thanks for posting. :)

Hi aeronut

Thank you.
You said it: "Never surrender, never give up..." :)

Cheers,
Reto

Q.E.D. "quod erat demonstrandum"

Epoxy rear fairing wouldn't fit nicely.
Went for rear ply fairing with stringer extension, similar to Bruce's layout...

Just realized when I wanted to glue the rear ply fairing in place, that I better hook up the rudder/tail wheel controls beforehand. This to ensure no conflict exists with extended stringers. All is fine at the back.

But...

Inside the cockpit the (original) cable routing is quite a bit off the side walls (see picture 1). I wonder if a second cable fairlead could be installed to re-route the cables closer to the side walls ( see picture 2)?

That rear fairing is really beautifully done.

Tom

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

I have looked at this same (issue) with mine and was thinking about trying to male some sort of an extension out from the rudder pedals for the cables to hook to in an effort to solve for the problem. Not sure that it's the best solution though. It would put the cables right next to the side wall all the way from the pedals back to the bulkhead behind the seat without the need for any angle change hardware. Might make for a more comfortable feel for your feet on the rudder pedals as well. As it is, your foot position is blocked from any further outward position as it's limited by the cable being mounted right there. It might not seem like a big deal but being able to have that little bit extra foot movement could be a considerable difference in comfort level.
Or I guess there are also options of increasing the width of the floor board and mounting the pedals at the furthest outside position OR having pedals that are shaped so as to have a big outside (bow) to them so as the cable attaching to them will again be as far to the outside as possible. It's probably simplest to mount something like Reto shows in his drawing but I see my ideas as possibly making the foot area seem more spacey (feeling). Don't think any of the ideas would require that much extra work.
Especially for a new build. Nor do I think they would be changes that effect structural integrity in any way , shape or form.

Tom, thank you for your thoughts. Did consider similar options. The outwards extension of the pedal hooking point might produce torsion stress on the pedals though. The first priority for me is to route the cable in "safer" way, second more feet/leg room. Bruce has an interesting solution routing the cables under the seat. Will sleep over it a few nights...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Great work on the rear fairing, Reto. It's a bit fiddly, but satisfying to get it right, isn't it?
.
As to your ideas on re-routing the rudder cables, I too didn't like the idea of a control cable sharing my seat. so I ran the cables under the seat, through an extra fairlead in the forward seat bulkhead, and then through some aluminium tube to stop them fouling the seat belt. See pics below from my 'Pushrod Controls' thread.

Thank you Bruce for the pictures.
Yup, it's quite satisfying to get the rear fairing done nicely...
I like the under seat option, because it doesn't feel right having vital control cables running 3cm next to the pilot.
Tom had some ideas regarding more leg room.

On an other note:
Just saw a documentary of the WWII UK Mosquito bomber, it was mainly build in (birch) ply too... Impressive.

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Tom

That rear fairing is really beautifully done.

Tom

Tom, tomorrow I shall glue the rear fairing ply on.
With your kind words it will be done in a blink of an eye... :)

Cheers
Reto

all went well... and Bruce, yes it was a bit of a fiddle... :)

Looks great, Reto - good on yer.

Bruce

Slim instrument panel (cover) border, laminated with birch ply.
Started with Cockpit glueing...

obviously baby steps...

Gents
Instrument panel:
I will install ALT/VSI/ASI/BALL/RPM/EGT/CHT/FUEL.
Is it advisable to rubber mount the entire instrument panel (vibs)?
Thank you for inputs.
Reto

Mine is suspended by rubber supports one on each side an another in the upper middle.
The rubber pieces had inserted bolts at each end, I think they are Piper brand or else, bought them at an air show.

Quoted from Ricardo

Mine is suspended by rubber supports one on each side an another in the upper middle.
The rubber pieces had inserted bolts at each end, I think they are Piper brand or else, bought them at an air show.

Hi Ricardo/gents
Thank you for the great picture. Very nicely done... :)
I might consider to fabricate it from alu.
Are there any static charge or electrical interference issues if it's made from alu?
Thanks
Reto

Like Ricardo, I rubber mounted my panel too. More pix, etc, on my own thread here http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1409444380/s-90/

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Like Ricardo, I rubber mounted my panel too. More pix, etc, on my own thread here http://www.lonesomebuzzards.com/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1409444380/s-90/

Bruce

Thank you for the pic Bruce, your version looks very good too!
I wonder how soft the rubbers ideally should be...

Reto

Gents

I might consider to fabricate the instrument panel from alu.
Are there any static charge or instrument interference issues if it's made from alu?

Thanks
Reto

Most all GA aircraft have aluminum panels...........

Quoted from Harless Greear

Most all GA aircraft have aluminum panels...........

Tnx, do they ground the panel...?

I'm sure that it's grounded since it's attached to the structure that makes up the rest of the plane.. It may have an electrical ground wire for the individual instruments.. Don't know for sure..

The clamp man® did it again...

It was motivating to work with metal and the panel seems to be sturdy. Master switch & eng time/clock are still missing though. The panel will be spray painted with texture and black.
CB’s and switches for different circuits are installed, but the final wiring will be a challenge because I have never done it…

Reto,
Your instrument panel would make the Boeing Company proud if they had made it. One caution is to make sure that the panel doesn't touch any part of the airframe. The engine shaking during start and especially on shut down can be can be hard on instruments

Very impressive work. What dick said is really good advise. :)

Looks great Reto!

Bruce

Quoted from Dick Rake

Reto,
Your instrument panel would make the Boeing Company proud if they had made it. One caution is to make sure that the panel doesn't touch any part of the airframe. The engine shaking during start and especially on shut down can be can be hard on instruments

Hi Dick
Thank you for your kind words and good advise.
At the moment there is about a 3/16" gap all around the panel and the mounting rubbers are quite hard.
Might consider softer rubbers and 1/4" gap in the future.
... certainly not Airbus... :)
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from aeronut

Very impressive work. What dick said is really good advise. :)

Hi aeronut
Thank you, quite cramped though...
And yes, Dick certainly got a good point there.
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Looks great Reto!

Bruce

Hi Bruce
I definitely have given up trying to catch up with your build...
Spending a lot of time fiddling around... :o
Cheers
Reto

The locking mechanism works fine, but I had to turn around the bolt from the rear hold down bracket due to lack of space. Each bolt is held in position with two (1/2 thickness) self locking nuts. I wonder if it's the same with other builds?

Reto,
You with Bruce should set up a Minimax factory. SOOOO nice work.
I am green envy to see the instrument panel and see that this plane will not have my EFIS either... :( Or would ya if you have navi integrated ?
Peter

Quoted from pkoszegi

Reto,
You with Bruce should set up a Minimax factory. SOOOO nice work.
I am green envy to see the instrument panel and see that this plane will not have my EFIS either... :( Or would ya if you have navi integrated ?
Peter

Hi Peter
Trying... But Bruce is gifted, not me...
Realized that I am quite old school in many aspects of life...
Had to stare on the screens in a glass cockpit for many years during my former professional life...
Guess that's why I like it analogue now... :)
But I hear your EFIS shall be very nice and certainly it would be a cost effective solution.
Cheers
Reto

The triangular cockpit guides which Bruce suggested work really well. It just can't move at all any more, rock solid...

First I add some corner blocks, now she is staring at me...
Perhaps I spent to much time in the workshop... :D

soon I will be able to check if I really fit...

Looking good as always Reto. I am finding it quite hard to get a snug fit at the top of the Lexan windshield - the profile of the cut edge is critical. But I'm probably making it harder for myself by going for a one-piece wrap around screen.

From an earlier post of yours on the canopy locks:

Quoted Text

Each bolt is held in position with two (1/2 thickness) self locking nuts. I wonder if it's the same with other builds?

Re the above, instead of 2 stiffnuts, I used a spacer tube on the long side & pulled it tight with a single stiffnut on the other side of the lug. I don't suppose there's any advantage either way.

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Looking good as always Reto. I am finding it quite hard to get a snug fit at the top of the Lexan windshield - the profile of the cut edge is critical. But I'm probably making it harder for myself by going for a one-piece wrap around screen.

From an earlier post of yours on the canopy locks:

Re the above, instead of 2 stiffnuts, I used a spacer tube on the long side & pulled it tight with a single stiffnut on the other side of the lug. I don't suppose there's any advantage either way.

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Thank you for your insight regarding windshield and locking bolts.
The Lexan "wrapping" will be one of my next tasks too.

If you donate at least one of your wings to me, I might have a chance to catch up with you... :)

What is your take on the brakes?
Only one hand lever seems to me not a reliable solution for short field landings...
Your arrangement is an ergonomic solution.
Did you have a chance to somehow test the effectiveness?

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

The triangular cockpit guides which Bruce suggested work really well. It just can't move at all any more, rock solid...

Reto:
I'm don't understand quite well how those triangles work. Could you give us more details?
Thanks!

Quoted from Ricardo

Reto:
I'm don't understand quite well how those triangles work. Could you give us more details?
Thanks!

Hi Ricardo

The triangles are glued on the fuselage side and the cockpit frame has the negative shape (cut out). When the cockpit is closed they join and match together and the frame can't move any more.
It's great idea from an other member of the forum.
Please have a look at the pictures...
Let me know if it's clear.

Cheers
Reto

Thanks Reto! Now I get it. That's a neat feature, although my cockpit is very tight when closed, there's always room for improvement.
I also have have in the check list, right before departure: "Cockpit handle in the lock position".

Hey Reto, I'll give you a wing if you do my engine installation as well as yours! Those reed valve low mounted carbs don't make things easy, do they? I'm working on it. . .

Quoted Text

What is your take on the brakes?

Not sure what I can say about brakes - I'm sure others can comment with the benefit of realtime experience. I don't have any of that on this plane - yet :(

I fitted heel brakes because I didn't reckon there was enough room to get toe brakes in, & I don't mind heel brakes - I think you can get used to most things.

I don't suppose they'll be particularly effective. The drums are very light pressed steel, and don't look completely true. But I'm not expecting much more than a bit of help with low speed taxiing, and the ability for at least a partial engine run up whilst doing pre takeoff checks.

I too would be interested to hear how those with differential drum brakes have arranged their system, and whether they work well.

So the Max won over the MGC gearbox?

Bruce

YEEHAW I knew there was someone out there that likes heel brakes better than toe brakes (beside me). :)

You can now get brake drums that are machined on the inside with a little flange on the outside to help them maintain their shape.. They are a lot better than the originals..

Quoted from beragoobruce

Those reed valve low mounted carbs don't make things easy, do they? I'm working on it. . .

I fitted heel brakes because I didn't reckon there was enough room to get toe brakes in, & I don't mind heel brakes - I think you can get used to most things.

I'm not expecting much more than a bit of help with low speed taxiing, and the ability for at least a partial engine run up whilst doing pre takeoff checks.

So the Max won over the MGC gearbox?

Hi Bruce

Thank you for your generous offer, but I will have to decline because if I accept, I will end up with one ordinary wing and one excellent wing. It might veer to one side.

I wished I could find a good solution for the brake issue. you are right about lack of space for toe brakes. I might fit heel brakes too instead. I might have missed this, but did you fabricate the hardware?

Certainly I would like to use the brakes in the same manner as you describe, just for peace of mind having differential braking available would come handy.

Neither of both... Missus has left for 3 weeks, doing some home improvement as a surprise... :)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from aeronut

YEEHAW I knew there was someone out there that likes heel brakes better than toe brakes (beside me). :)

Then we could found a heel brake club... :)
I hope it's not a bother, would you be able to show some pictures of your brake arrangement?

Thank you and cheers
Reto

Quoted from Harless Greear

You can now get brake drums that are machined on the inside with a little flange on the outside to help them maintain their shape.. They are a lot better than the originals..

Thank you for that input...
As Bruce mentioned, mine aren't true either.
Would you have the details of a supplier handy?

Thank you and cheers
Reto

Dear members

I would appreciate if members in the forum with a differential drum brake system (heel or toe) installed in their MM could reply with some pictures of the arrangement and share their practical experience.

Thank you in advance!
Reto

Quoted from Harless Greear

You can now get brake drums that are machined on the inside with a little flange on the outside to help them maintain their shape.. They are a lot better than the originals..

Any idea where we can get these? My search has been fruitless

Sorry but I do not have any brakes on my Minimax and do not miss them. Just use good energy management; of course it helps to have a 5000' runway. ;)

http://www.out2win.com/catalog/brakeaz.html

I have the AZ 2213-ID

Here is another one..

http://www.azusaeng.com/brakes/4brk.html

The AZ 2213-ID means that the inside is machined and you can get the same drum AZ 2213 OD that has the Outside machined for the band brakes.......

Quoted from Harless Greear

The AZ 2213-ID means that the inside is machined and you can get the same drum AZ 2213 OD that has the Outside machined for the band brakes.......

Hi

Apologies for delayed reply.
Great link & info, thank you very much!
Guess I will order those drums...

Cheers
Reto

Ref.: Heel Brakes

Hi Tom

Apologies for my delayed reply.

Regarding the heel brakes, your very informative post has vanished in thin air... :(
If you don't mind, could you please send it again?

Thank you and cheers
Reto

All interesting stuff, TTT. Great the way different people come up with all these clever ideas. Useful links from Harless, too, for the improved brake drums.

Reto, sorry I can't post pix of my heel brakes. I don't have any useful ones at present, & unfortunately my back has failed me (from helping a mate install a reconditioned car engine in his daughter's car). So I'm confined to the floor & can't take photos of my system. But I will as soon as I become a little more mobile!

Bruce

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

Photos..

Hi TTT

Thank you very much for the pictures!
Certainly it is a great help and inspiring for designing my system.

Cheers and tnx again...
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

All interesting stuff, TTT. Great the way different people come up with all these clever ideas. Useful links from Harless, too, for the improved brake drums.

Reto, sorry I can't post pix of my heel brakes. I don't have any useful ones at present, & unfortunately my back has failed me (from helping a mate install a reconditioned car engine in his daughter's car). So I'm confined to the floor & can't take photos of my system. But I will as soon as I become a little more mobile!

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Omg, that's painful...

If you believe it or not, I had the same issue about 3 weeks ago from heavy lifting in the garden.
Was AOG for nearly one week. I am sure you get pampered though and consequently will go through a speedy recovery... ;)
No rush regarding the pictures, TTT's are very useful and Harless' link will help too...

I will start this weekend with the grand old lady's gearbox.

Get well soon.
Cheers
Reto

Gents

It's fantastic to get so many ideas of how to arrange/improve the brake system.
Thank you again TTT for the pics!

I take the liberty to share some pictures which recently Ricardo has send to me.
In my understanding it's a toe brake system and has been build by a passionate home builder quite a while ago.
The fabrication though would be a bit too much for my humble machineries I've got in my work shop... :o

Does anybody in this forum know, if such a complete brake set (or similar) could be purchased some where?
Together with the suggested drum upgrade (by Harless G.), it would be a great "package solution".

Thank you again Ricardo for sharing!

Thank you for any additional inputs!

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

Here it is...
I imagine these (might) be drawings a machine shop could work
with to make them for you. Well guess they would need welding
experience as well

Hi TTT

Great drawings, tnx.
Unfortunately though, the level of fabrication competence of any machine shop here in Thailand is just not up to the task.

Had a look at the available Spruce kit. It might be possible to modify them for non hydraulic, yet they might be too bulky for the limited leg room space in the MM. But thank you for the link.

Would you know who actually designed them?

Cheers
Reto

Hi Reto

I've posted some pix of my brakes on my thread FYI. But some of the solutions here look better!

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Hi Reto

I've posted some pix of my brakes on my thread FYI. But some of the solutions here look better!

Bruce

...beauty is in the eye of the beholder... :)

Thank you Bruce

Quoted Text

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Ask my wife. . . ;D

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

AS (pre-made brake pedals) might be to bulky.

Seems you will save yourself some trouble if you go with one of the heel brake
designs. You get quite a few ideas to go with. TTT

Hi TTT
Yes, I will pm Ricardo and ask.
The Eros, due to the low mounted engine, is quite restricted with the hight of the pedals which can be installed.
You are spot on with this and that's what I actually meant with "bulky".
Thank you for your research on the topic!
Cheers
Reto

Guys:
About those brakes, unfortunately I have no idea who sent me the pictures and drawings.
Couldn't find anything in old files, Sorry about that.

Quoted from Ricardo

Guys:
About those brakes, unfortunately I have no idea who sent me the pictures and drawings.
Couldn't find anything in old files, Sorry about that.

Hi Ricardo

Don't worry about it.
But thank you anyway for the plans and pictures!

Have a great day.

Cheers
Reto

Good Day Gentlemen

Finally I am back in the workshop.
It is a joy to work on the Max again.
The wings keep me now busy...

Cheers
Reto

Nice to see you are back working on the Eros.

Hope all is going well for you now.

Welcome back Reto.

Hope to see your wings taking shape in your beautiful clean workshop.

Bruce

Quoted from Ultramax

Nice to see you are back working on the Eros.

Thank you Anthony

Quoted from aeronut

Hope all is going well for you now.

Thank you, I hope so too... With Bruce so far ahead I shall not stop any more... :)

Quoted from beragoobruce

Welcome back Reto.

Hope to see your wings taking shape in your beautiful clean workshop.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

A thin layer of saw dust has already settled everywhere, very homey!

I need to send you on a 6 month around the world trip to catch up with you...

Cheers
Reto

Hi,

If you need a hand I am just down the highway a few hours. I am very good with wood working 8) You are doing a excellent job. Keep up the good work.

First front wing spare web glued on.
I hope the web will straighten the caps.

During curing time installed wheel brakes on metal landing gear.
4 distance bushes fabricated to allow enough axle sticking out for safe strut attachment.
Had to re-bend 1 brake lever as 2 x R/H were supplied with the kit.

2 wheel pants bracket done.

Excited... Finally found nice rudder/brake pedals... :)

Where did you find those Rudder Pedals?

Wow! Too nice to wear. 😆

Those are nice rudder pedals. Glad your back!

Quoted from Ultramax

Where did you find those Rudder Pedals?

With A. Spruce, non stock item, I am not sure if they will work, but will give it a try...

Quoted from Ricardo

Wow! Too nice to wear. 😆

Hi Ricardo!

Not sure if you referring to the pants or brake pedals.... :)

Hope all fine on your end!

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Cool!

Bruce

Never told you, but Oz has the coolest radio station(s)... and besides your cool project that's cool too:
Triple j Unearthed (absolutely no bla bla) :)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Those are nice rudder pedals. Glad your back!

Brian

When I saw your and Bruce's project progress I couldn't help but jumping in again... ;)

Cheers
Reto

I am busy fabricating the parts for the wings.
The 4 end ribs (rot & tip) are taking quite a while, but at least the 20 "normal" ribs are done already.

I like Bruce's wing closure at his aileron section (additional web). It's beautifully done and very well documented. I am lucky to be slow for once... :) Thank you Bruce!

There is quite some planning required regarding the tolerances/fabrication of the aileron section. My final measurements are identical with Bruce's.

Pictures of the first finished root rib are below.
The top and bottom cap/ply has got a +/-3 deg. angle "sanded-in" already.

Root ribs, tip ribs & ribs #5 build from scratch.
Covered with lovely aircraft grade ply (Mahogany).
Working on more parts for the wings...

Looking good. Wish my work shop looked that neat and clean. :)

Quoted from aeronut

Looking good. Wish my work shop looked that neat and clean. :)

Retto and Bruce are such outstanding craftsmen, I'm happy I built my plane long time ago. Never built anything on wood before in my life, not even a chair ;D .
That´s why it is such a great design, anybody can put their work up in the air....and land safely :o

Beautiful work, Reto - those ribs are works of art! Where did you get the aircraft grade ply?

Ricardo, if you were to make a chair now, I bet it would look pretty good. Having developed your skills on making an aeroplane! :) Yours was one of the builds that inspired me to make a Max: it was very well documented with lots of photos showing your excellent workmanship.

Bruce

Thanks for your kind words Bruce. Coming from you, makes my work much more valuable than I thought.

Quoted from aeronut

Looking good. Wish my work shop looked that neat and clean. :)

Hi aeronut

Every evening I tend to use my vacuum cleaner, with the disturbing side effect that everything in its nozzle-way tends to disappear... :)
And rest assured, at times there is a lot of dust and chaos... :)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Ricardo

Retto and Bruce are such outstanding craftsmen, I'm happy I built my plane long time ago. Never built anything on wood before in my life, not even a chair ;D .
That´s why it is such a great design, anybody can put their work up in the air....and land safely :o

Ricardo

As Bruce said, your work was/is a great inspiration to me too and the pictures of your uncovered Max are actually in front of my Building Binder...
Btw, I could use some high chairs in my workshop (just in case you decide to use your talent again)... :)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Beautiful work, Reto - those ribs are works of art! Where did you get the aircraft grade ply?

Ricardo, if you were to make a chair now, I bet it would look pretty good. Having developed your skills on making an aeroplane! :) Yours was one of the builds that inspired me to make a Max: it was very well documented with lots of photos showing your excellent workmanship.

Bruce

Bruce

Thank you for your kind words.

The ply is from Spruce as the "kit" ply was unfortunately cut a bit too narrow.
It is fantastic to work with...
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/domplywood.php

Did you already decide how your colour scheme will look? ;)

Cheers
Reto

Beautiful work. A real inspiration. You and Bruce are true craftsmen. Ricardo I find your help has been invaluable. I am almost ashamed to post my efforts!thank you for posting your updates

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Beautiful work. A real inspiration. You and Bruce are true craftsmen. Ricardo I find your help has been invaluable. I am almost ashamed to post my efforts!thank you for posting your updates

Brian

Thank you for your kind words, but looking at your project and great progress I am humbled.
Your wind generator is super cool!
You almost there!

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

Did you already decide how your colour scheme will look?

Not yet. I've finished spraying the fuselage white. I'm doing overlays with tracing paper on the 3 view drawing trying to work out what looks best by way of some stripes to provide some contrast. Stripes will probably be a fairly deep blue.

I wish I was more artistic!

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Not yet. I've finished spraying the fuselage white. I'm doing overlays with tracing paper on the 3 view drawing trying to work out what looks best by way of some stripes to provide some contrast. Stripes will probably be a fairly deep blue.

I wish I was more artistic!

Bruce

Wished that would be my "only" task which is left to do... :)

You might have better links already:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=aircraft+painting&biw=1252&bih=554&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM5N2fqp3LAhVDV44KHdNLCM0QsAQILQ#tbm=isch&q=aircraft+paint+scheme&imgrc=tEyu3D8PtkSS2M%3A

Reto

Hey, great link Reto - thanks! There are some very pretty aeroplanes there: nearly all beyond my beginner's skills at spray painting :-/

The trouble with trying to get a side stripe along the fuselage to 'work' is that the Eros is a shoulder wing. So if you put the stripe below the wing it can't be seen on the ground, & if you try putting it at upper longeron level the wing root gets in the way.

But I think I've worked out something that might look ok. I'm still trying for the retro look!

Cheers

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

The trouble with trying to get a side stripe along the fuselage to 'work' is that the Eros is a shoulder wing. So if you put the stripe below the wing it can't be seen on the ground, & if you try putting it at upper longeron level the wing root gets in the way.

Yep, it's not easy...
Only 2 pictures found in my Reno air racing book...

This design would be very inspiring.

All good stuff. But Ricardo, I'd need a girl with smaller boobs or they wouldn't fit my fuselage. . .

Sorry Reto. I shouldn't be filling your excellent build thread with this stuff.

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

All good stuff. But Ricardo, I'd need a girl with smaller boobs or they wouldn't fit my fuselage. . .

Sorry Reto. I shouldn't be filling your excellent build thread with this stuff.

Bruce

no problem,I'll remove it in a couple of days, let other builders get some ideas.

Quoted from Ricardo

no problem,I'll remove it in a couple of days, let other builders get some ideas.

Bruce, Ricardo
I absolutely don't mind. Please leave it because I like it... ;).
It shouldn't be a too serious affair to build a flying machine anyway!
Bruce you mentioned vintage, that's why I dug out on old Reno book...
Cheers guys

I guess this paint scheme discussion could get out of hand, but here's one of my favorites. It's FUN-looking!! http://blog.duncanaviation.com/index/bid/69833/Duncan-Aviation-Unveils-Double-Take-Design-on-Company-Citation I too will delete the post if desired to keep the thread on track. But, I couldn't resist.

Lynn

Lynn, have you been sneaking a look at my plane? That's exactly how my fuselage looks!

Cool....that makes 2 now...the Citation and your MiniMAX! If I have my way there could be a 3rd, providing I build another plane and have the nerve to paint it like the Citation. Anybody can have a plane painted with swoopy lines, but it takes a real man to paint blotches on one! 8)

Lynn

Second front wing spar is borne...

Still working on the front spars (actually fiddling)...
The strut fittings are completed.

Unfortunately some of the spar caps are varying in thickness, are not true and 1/32 under size.

To fix this, as first step, I sanded the lower spar part straight and true. Then I decided to cut off as little as possible on top and did the first 10.5 deg angle cut. I glued some 1/4 x 1/4 cap sticks on the (still) flat part on top and then did a 2nd cut with the band saw. Now the spar total width is back to the required 6 7/8" and the undersized spare caps have got minimal material loss from the cut (full strength)...

Happy with the result...

That looks great, Reto. And your bandsaw is a proper tool - makes mine look like a toy! Still about the most useful tool in the shop, though. And I congratulate you on your immaculate workshop. I started off with good intentions, but sadly failed to live up to them.

Once you get those ribs in place you'll really get a buzz.

Motivation is hanging on the wall.
Had to replace some more banana wood with spruce.
Rear spar in the making...

Quoted from beragoobruce

That looks great, Reto. And your bandsaw is a proper tool - makes mine look like a toy! Still about the most useful tool in the shop, though. And I congratulate you on your immaculate workshop. I started off with good intentions, but sadly failed to live up to them.

Once you get those ribs in place you'll really get a buzz.

Bruce
You can't imagine how many times I had to fix my (made in China) bandsaw already, actually it's a miracle that it's still alive...
I wished I could stand in knee-deep saw dust, but due to my breathing problems I need to get rid of the dust as much as I can...
Hope all well on your end!
Reto

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Beautiful work!

Brian
Thank you for your kind words, but progress is sooo slow, because the caps are bent and not true and it takes a lot of time to make the wood fit together. I want to have proper joints for glueing.
You are very close to the finishing line, great job!
I am happy for you.
Cheers
Reto

Blimey - that is one very bent bit of spar cap in your photo. I'm surprised it was shipped to you.

But your completed spar looks superb, as ever. Soon be time to slide on the ribs - woo-hoo!

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Blimey - that is one very bent bit of spar cap in your photo. I'm surprised it was shipped to you.

But your completed spar looks superb, as ever. Soon be time to slide on the ribs - woo-hoo!

Bruce

Unfortunately half of the caps are/were like that... Already the fuselage was difficult to build, but for the spars it's much more critical... Had to replace the twisted RS23 planks with new spruce too... It takes a lot of time to adjust the angles of the adjacent wood which is joining the caps and I can't just make the caps true, because they are already undersized... Struggling quite a bit :(

Well your work so far looks nothing less than first class. I'm guessing there isn't a local wood equivalent to spruce in Thailand either.

Just keep in my mind how much you're going to enjoy your beautiful build when it turns from sawdust and sticks into a beautiful aeroplane :)

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

Just keep in my mind how much you're going to enjoy your beautiful build when it turns from sawdust and sticks into a beautiful aeroplane :)

Bruce

Thank you Bruce for your words of encouragement... :)

I made same kind of A-pillars out of Mahogany-ply and installed the upgraded hinge material.
Finally the first rear spar is taking shape too...

But then I got a nasty flu... :(

That is a pretty impressive build that you have; hope your feeling better today.

Yes, looking good Reto. Hope you beat the bug & get back to building soon. You're nearing the last leg now!

Bruce

Quoted from aeronut

hope your feeling better today.

Thank you for your well wishes, still AOG...
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Hope you beat the bug & get back to building soon.
Bruce

Can't believe that I'm spending most of my time the u/s and flat in the bed, instead fiddling in the workshop...

First I and then one of our lovely cats got sick.
But finally I am back in the workshop. :)

The second rear spar takes shape...

Quoted from Reto S

First I and then one of our lovely cats got sick.
But finally I am back in the workshop. :)

The second rear spar takes shape...

Reto, your workmanship looks outstanding.

It is good to see you back, Reto. Great work as always. You must be close now to the exciting part - assembling all those bits into a wing!

Bruce

Quoted from Dick Rake

Reto, your workmanship looks outstanding.

Thank you Dick, but just on the small size pictures though...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

It is good to see you back, Reto. Great work as always. You must be close now to the exciting part - assembling all those bits into a wing!

Bruce

Bruce, I'm fabricating a new style of a brake system. Pics will follow.
After that the cockpit Lexan and then, Eureka, hopefully the wings...

Cheers
Reto

Awesome! Interested in your brake system. That is my next hurdle

Finally the brake system is completed. I will try to add an additional park brake function. Apologies Brian for the late reply regarding the brake arrangement, it took more time to complete the system than I anticipated. The wheel pants look quite nice. The steel landing gear side covers are made from 1/8" Mahogany aircraft ply.

Today was "black Tuesday" as my band saw "exploded" twice ... Now I've got no saw blades any more...
It took me a whole day to cut a precise template for the front "Lexan".

Bruce, I am thinking installing and test run the engine first, before I start with the wing construction. Was it messy when you did it? What about the danger for oil contamination of the uncovered fuselage?

Impecable work Reto!
The brake system picture is not very clear to figure out. Could you post another picture?
Thanks!

Hey Reto - lovely shiny work!

Heel brakes look well made, but one point occurs to me. The way you have arranged the levers, you have a mechanical disadvantage. That is, your heel presses on the lever between the cable end and the pivot. This may mean you have to apply very high pushing force to get much stopping power on the brakes. Or it may work fine!

If you find in service you have to press too hard, you could think about relocating the cable attach point inboard, nearer the pivot point, with your heel contact outboard of the cable attach. That way you get a mechanical advantage on the lever.

As to running up the engine, my first runs did result in some black oil spots over the forward fuse. Since I had varnished it all, this wasn't a problem. But if you have untreated wood, you may find spots of oil soak into the grain. Again, it depends on what finish you intend for the forward fuselage. If you are going to cover with Dacron, no problem. If you are going to paint, maybe they would show through. But if you epoxy varnish first (which I think is a good idea to maintain moisture content at optimum), any spots will just wipe off.

I'm greatly looking forward to hearing how your Hirth engine performs.

Bruce

Quoted from Ricardo

Impecable work Reto!
The brake system picture is not very clear to figure out. Could you post another picture?
Thanks!

Ricardo
Tom
Bruce

Thank you for your kind words.
Please find attached better pictures of the brake system.
You can see the future handbrake lever in the middle (black), which will be attached to the brakes (green lines).
Deliberately I don't want "strong" brakes, as we all know, braking with a tail dragger is tricky.
I do have, even after 30 odd years, still the flutter when I remember my almost ground loop with a Bücker Bü 131 in a pre-military training course.
Therefore the park brake will be for engine run up and the un-leveraged brakes for gentle braking...

My shoe size is 11 and I am 6'3" tall, the resting position of the feet is in the middle on the brake quadrant and the feet are slanted outwards, towards the rudder pedals (feet position shown in brown colour).

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

...Again, with the heel brakes there was not an issue of needing leverage as you might with the hand lever type of activation... TTT

Hi Tom

Thank you for your valuable quality inputs regarding the brake arrangement.

I have tortured my brain to find a solution which works with my body/feet size.
Please see me reply to Ricardo above...

I hope it makes sense the way I wrote it... :)

Cheers

Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

The way you have arranged the levers, you have a mechanical disadvantage. That is, your heel presses on the lever between the cable end and the pivot.
Again, it depends on what finish you intend for the forward fuselage.
Bruce

Hi Bruce

Thank you for your inputs.
I do have considered your point regarding my arrangement with only linear mechanical brake force (not leveraged).
Please have a look at my reply to Ricardo above...

I started already with West System epoxy fuse painting and more important the SS firewall is in (see below)...

Hope all well with your flying lessons!

Cheers
Reto

Canopy Lexan installed with some "cheeks" on the side for more cockpit space.
Engine SS firewall installed.

Great work! I like your brake setup! Lots of great ideas! Thanks for posting the photos! I am starting the brake system next! These ideas will be very helpful! Keep up the great work!

Canopy restrain, without interfering with head, shoulder or seatbelt position.

That looks great Reto!

Outstanding work ! Very impressive panel setup as well. I'm excited to follow your progress.

Quoted from Seaplane Pirate

Outstanding work ! Very impressive panel setup as well. I'm excited to follow your progress.

Hi PP

Thank you for your kind works.
Actually just finished the panel yesterday...

I am very curious about your project, especially the floats...
Got a MukTuk kit here too...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

That looks great Reto!

Thank you Bruce, working on the engine bay heat shields and air guides.
Got the local Harley shop guy TIG welding me exhaust, pick up today.
Did you do a static test run with full cowling on to see what eng temp result?

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Great work! I like your brake setup! Lots of great ideas! Thanks for posting the photos! I am starting the brake system next! These ideas will be very helpful! Keep up the great work!

Brian

I will use a ready made trailer hand brake as park brake.
Some cool designs are available for low price.

You might be the first conquering the skies, as Bruce is doing his training... :)

Cheers
Reto

Mine are what I would call "highly modified" muktuk's I've reengineered them significantly. I have a much better (larger) float design for my next plane. Let me know if I can help you in any way, I build primarily for seaplanes now but my prior boatbuilder skills come in handy. Incidentally we have looked at moving out your way at some point, it's on the list after Alaska.

Quoted from Seaplane Pirate

Mine are what I would call "highly modified" muktuk's I've reengineered them significantly. I have a much better (larger) float design for my next plane. Let me know if I can help you in any way, I build primarily for seaplanes now but my prior boatbuilder skills come in handy. Incidentally we have looked at moving out your way at some point, it's on the list after Alaska.

There were different sizes available when I ordered and mine are the slightly larger ones.
But first things first: MM completion, reactivation of my license, flying...
The floats are really a future project.

You are sharing the boat builder background with Bruce.
Think twice if you want to live in the heat over here, it's quite unbearable this year, a few days ago we got 125F!!!
I think I would prefer Alaska any time...

The Hirth exhaust system is similar to Rotax 503, therefore I could follow the original MM design for the muffler support...

What a job!
Any color ideas or design so far?

Quoted from Ricardo

What a job!
Any color ideas or design so far?

That's a difficult question...
I am focusing on building first and there is still a lot of work to do.
My hours go up and up... :)
How many hours did it take you?

WOW you and Bruce are real artists with this stuff. My guy is structurally sound. But you have a piece of art there! Keep up the great work! Thanks for the pics of your differential braking system!

WOW you and Bruce are real artists with this stuff. My Vmax is structurally sound. But you have a piece of art there! Keep up the great work! Thanks for the pics of your differential braking system!

Neat job on the exhaust, Reto. And you have more of it aligned with the airflow than mine.

I have not done any extended runs with the cowl on, so can't report on how this affects temperatures. I would expect them to be a bit high on a static run without the ram effect from passage through the air.

Maybe one day I'll find out.

It will be fun if you can get your plane on floats. Next year's project?

Quoted from Reto S

That's a difficult question...
I am focusing on building first and there is still a lot of work to do.
My hours go up and up... :)
How many hours did it take you?

Too many hours Reto, around 1200! Mainly because I did many short term sessions, it was a waste of time, reviewing the plans, bringing tools to the working table, measuring again, etc, there's no continuity that way.
I built only late at night after work just three times a week, it took me close to seven years to finish the plane. At the end I didn't bothered to do a fancy paint job, I just wanted to fly the plane. But I like her color, It looks more like a serious plane, less like a toy.
Anyhow I enjoyed the entire process with the only help from the fellows of this great site.

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Thanks for the pics of your differential braking system!

You are most welcome...
I don't want to add up the hours spent in the workshop though...
Do I hear something through the grapevine? Horizon? :)

Quoted from beragoobruce

Neat job on the exhaust, Reto. And you have more of it aligned with the airflow than mine.

I have not done any extended runs with the cowl on, so can't report on how this affects temperatures. I would expect them to be a bit high on a static run without the ram effect from passage through the air.

Maybe one day I'll find out.

It will be fun if you can get your plane on floats. Next year's project?

I am very happy with the guy who did it. 10 USD is a fair price too.

Bruce, your MZ engine seems less critical regarding air flow. Had to fabricate all kinds of air guides to satisfy factory requirements.

Your big day is coming very soon, don't worry!

Floats would be nice indeed, but scary too...

Quoted from Ricardo

Too many hours Reto, around 1200! Mainly because I did many short term sessions, it was a waste of time, reviewing the plans, bringing tools to the working table, measuring again, etc, there's no continuity that way.
I built only late at night after work just three times a week, it took me close to seven years to finish the plane. At the end I didn't bothered to do a fancy paint job, I just wanted to fly the plane. But I like her color, It looks more like a serious plane, less like a toy.
Anyhow I enjoyed the entire process with the only help from the fellows of this great site.

I envy you Ricardo. How did you find the energy to do the building next to your work? And 1200 hours is not bad at all! I have seen your videos, your plane looks great! Yup, the forum members are very motivating and helpful, I am always learning new stuff... How many flying hours did you accumulate?

The ss heat shield is done all around the engine bay.

According Hirth technical department, the Hirth engine (covered with cowling) needs careful design of internal airflow.
I spend a few days making all the necessaries guides and ducts. I am very curious if it will work and engine temps will be in limits.

Found lot's of info in the "gascolate or not" thread...

...installed the ACS gascolator in the very front with nothing protruding.
Furthermore the impulse fuel pump is installed.

Neat installation, the build is progressing very well for you. :)

Great work on the cooling shrouds, Reto. My engine is a little different in its cooling air arrangement. I have posted some pix on my thread re cowl mods for cooling that may (or may not!) be of interest regarding cooling air through the Eros cowl.

Neat placement for the gascolator. I guess being very humid where you are that condensation is likely to be a problem.

It can't be long before engine trials: looking forward to hearing how they go.

Quoted from aeronut

Neat installation, the build is progressing very well for you. :)

Trying, trying, learning every day...
Reading into the topics of el. system and fuel system arrangement...
Want to keep it simple though...

Lear:
"If it looks good, it will fly good"
:)

Quoted from beragoobruce

Great work on the cooling shrouds, Reto. My engine is a little different in its cooling air arrangement. I have posted some pix on my thread re cowl mods for cooling that may (or may not!) be of interest regarding cooling air through the Eros cowl.

Neat placement for the gascolator. I guess being very humid where you are that condensation is likely to be a problem.

It can't be long before engine trials: looking forward to hearing how they go.

Hirth went all the way to copy and replace the 503, but with the cooling system design they really did only half of their job. Most Hirth users opt for water cooling.

Yes it can be very humid over here, but it's more the daily range which troubles me. Like now, 15-80% rel. humidity.

Decided today not to run the engine before covering, it was done extensively in the factory. It only took me an hour or so to completely "dismantle" the fuselage.

The landing-gear-side-panel-attachment-clamps seem to work (without drilling into the landing gear).
But then the gear fell off... :)
It's easier to work inside the fuselage on the bench (not to lean into the foot well hole and brake the back)...

Do you have toe-in on your landing gear Reto? Just wondering how typical my gear is, given that the stub axles are 1" too short, & they have distinct toe in. I hope the suppliers have corrected these mistakes, as they are quite glaring errors.

Your wooden fairings look to be to your usual standards. I just covered mine with cloth on both sides. But I made an aluminium trim piece for both upper & lower sides to fair the legs into the fuselage. Just my obsession with reducing drag!

Quoted from beragoobruce

Do you have toe-in on your landing gear Reto? Just wondering how typical my gear is, given that the stub axles are 1" too short, & they have distinct toe in. I hope the suppliers have corrected these mistakes, as they are quite glaring errors.

Your wooden fairings look to be to your usual standards. I just covered mine with cloth on both sides. But I made an aluminium trim piece for both upper & lower sides to fair the legs into the fuselage. Just my obsession with reducing drag!

As far as I remember, left side 0 toe, right side slight toe out (with the second landing gear...). I checked quite a while ago though, can re-check in 2 days, because lady "C" sneaked in the workshop for brake-spa treatment... And the previously installed two new kingpin assemblies from MOSS have excessive play, can't believe my luck!

Btw, your obsession is totally Ok with me... :)

Flight controls are connected and rudder/tail wheel cables routed under the seat, inside aluminium tubes (not interfering with seatbelt attachment).
Pictures #2 shows 4 additional cable guides required to clear all "obstacles"...

Gents

Belated Happy New Year to all of you.

It has been a while since my last post. Some health issues slowed down progress (again), but inside my workshop-sanctuary there was sanding dust still accumulating almost on a daily basis (rather progressing in baby steps though…).

We had a few cooler, beautiful mornings over here and I am glad to share with you the roll-out of the fully functioning fuselage & empennage. Electrical system checks are done (starter turns, strobe works, Facet fuel pump connected in parallel) and pictures are taken...

... The Engine run up was successful, but idle vibrations are still too strong. Harder engine mount rubbers are on the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5KxAuACdHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-08BpNc8Co

Since my las post in May 2016 the following progress has been made:

- Sourcing would treatment suitable for Tropics and compatible with West system wood coating
- Installing a hard point at the tail section for lifting purpose and possible float attachment
- Sanding complete fuselage and tail into shape (gussets are finally presentable)
- Application of Tim-bor and West System coating
- Commence with right wing
- Installing a park brake system
- Assembly and completion of fuselage to final functional/running stage
- Growing a beard

The below pictures are taken during the past 8 month and documenting the progress made. It’s certainly worth mentioning that the joy of having reached this stage in the project is kinda overwhelming…

Cheers
Reto

Tim-bor, hardpoint, sanding, coating...

Start with right wing, park brake, engine install with help...

Electrical & 1000 small jobs...

Instruments, engine, prop, spinner, "shark gills" cowling, trim system, tail passes door...

Roll out with beard attached...

Reto,
Your workmanship is outstanding. Once you get the airplane complete and fully assembled the vibration and shaking you have now will be reduced because of the extra mass of the wings. Looking forward to seeing the finished airplane.
Dick

WOW that is very impressive. Lots of planning of systems! With great execution on the build. Going to be a fantastic airplane. :)

Absoutely outstanding....WOW :)

and such a feeling of perfection for you :o

Really Impressive build...thankyou for sharing it with me..and all of the ETLB

cheers Arthur

Outstanding craftsmanship, absolutely outstanding! You have set a very high bar by which to measure our own workmanship.

Paul Fiebich

Wow absolutely fantastic!! Your workmanship puts me to shame! Soon we will join Bruce in the air!!!

Quoted from Dick Rake

Reto,
Your workmanship is outstanding. Once you get the airplane complete and fully assembled the vibration and shaking you have now will be reduced because of the extra mass of the wings. Looking forward to seeing the finished airplane.
Dick

Thank you Dick. Your input regarding vibrations makes perfect sense. A part of the problem might be the presently installed mounts, which are too soft (Spruce medium). Hirth recommends up to six large rubber mounts "as hard as possible". I found a supplier in Canada of original, hard Barry Mounts (old stock). I will give it a try... :)

Quoted from aeronut

WOW that is very impressive. Lots of planning of systems! With great execution on the build. Going to be a fantastic airplane. :)

Thank you aeronut. Slowly I see light on the horizon... actually I am still enjoying to build... :)

Quoted from Arthur Withy

Absoutely outstanding....WOW :)

and such a feeling of perfection for you :o

Really Impressive build...thankyou for sharing it with me..and all of the ETLB

cheers Arthur

Arthur, thank you for your kind words. There is too much building time logged already... I have simply given up trying to move faster with the build. Many times I had to do the same task twice, because the result was not pleasing... Over here there is no other builder around to share any kind of building related information or knowledge transfer. Therefore I appreciate ETLB as a vital knowledge source and inspiration very much... Cheers Reto

Quoted from fiebichpv

Outstanding craftsmanship, absolutely outstanding! You have set a very high bar by which to measure our own workmanship.

Paul Fiebich

Hi Paul, your words are very kind... But for the pictures I am using a very old, low resolution camera... And I am fiddling a lot, which is not documented at all... :)
Reto

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Wow absolutely fantastic!! Your workmanship puts me to shame! Soon we will join Bruce in the air!!!

Brian, thank you very much, but that is "nonsense"... Look what you have achieved during the past 3 years... Your Max looks fantastic! I am at 1750 hours into my build now... May I ask how many hours did you log until now?
And yes, hopefully I can join you and Bruce in the skies this year. Need to sort out medical and license issues on top of the build though... Your determination was/is inspiring... :)
Reto

Hey Reto...I too... am a perfectionist....and yes 3 times to try to build something is acceptable ... in my world...and probably yours.....however as the build progress you do learn and once is enough ......you just have to make yourself happy....and having done all the HARD work ....you will be very happy with the end result for yourself...and all the great praise from onlookers will be your satisfaction of building a great aeroplane....that in in the end is ALL yours...!!!! :)

and it is built with love and dedication...better than a certified aircraft.... 8)

Quoted from Arthur Withy

and it is built with love and dedication...better than a certified aircraft.... 8)

Hi Arthur

Some rather philosophical images spring to my mind, triggered by your last responses... :)

Your view towards building and most probably towards life in general, captures the essence of the attitude we share: Simply to do the best one can, with love and concentration... Still knowing though, perfection will be impossible to achieve...

The ultimate satisfaction is to watch a "Japanese spirited" craftsman at work with skills he acquired during a lifetime of concentration and complete dedication. The resulting product is just stunningly pure and yes, sometimes perfect.

It is a kind of luxury to withdraw from the rat race of daily life and spend ones time secluded in a workshop.
From my experience though, sometimes it would be beneficial to be more "lenient" towards daily chores and other people, regarding self imposed "high" standards. But it is difficult to change character at the age of 55... :)

In our fast moving world these qualities are becoming more and more obsolete. Nevertheless, I believe most people sharing a big dream like we all do here, will ultimately do their very best to create something which they can be very proud of...

Have a great day!
Reto

well NO...we just want to DO it RIGHT........and the minmax can suffer "average" builders...because its a great design ...by a man who knew how to perfect simple designs.....Wayne was a very very clever man....I wish I had the opportunity to meet him.

Ive spoken to an Australian man (and a friend) who went to meet him before he purchased the kit and built the aircraft...he ...the Aussie was ...so right about Wayne and his design

Great, well done Reto! Your engine & its installation look to be as good as the rest of the build - superb! (your mansion looks pretty good, too)

Now hurry up & get that plane covered, so we can share flying stories.

Go Reto!

HI Reto!..... I'm speechless..... We, the average builders, just have to admire such a pristine work.
Some of us may be sort of "perfectionists" but talent has to be right next to desire. Congratulations!

Too much work and high temperatures keep me grounded :( ... however it seems we're heading to a good year here at the farm :o.

Quoted from Arthur Withy

well NO...we just want to DO it RIGHT........and the minmax can suffer "average" builders...because its a great design ...by a man who knew how to perfect simple designs.....Wayne was a very very clever man....I wish I had the opportunity to meet him.

Ive spoken to an Australian man (and a friend) who went to meet him before he purchased the kit and built the aircraft...he ...the Aussie was ...so right about Wayne and his design

Without a doubt Mr. Wayne was a genius in his own right...
He kinda applied "form follows function", but still created a pleasing looking airplane... :)

How is your "Jodel build" progressing?

Quoted from beragoobruce

Great, well done Reto! Your engine & its installation look to be as good as the rest of the build - superb! (your mansion looks pretty good, too)

Now hurry up & get that plane covered, so we can share flying stories.

Go Reto!

Bruce, I do what I can to join as soon as possible this exclusive flying Guild of brave man!

Btw, a while ago I mentioned to you that I have got 0 deg toe-in on my metal lg, oops, it does have got toe-in too...

Quoted from Ricardo

HI Reto!..... I'm speechless..... We, the average builders, just have to admire such a pristine work.
Some of us may be sort of "perfectionists" but talent has to be right next to desire. Congratulations!

Too much work and high temperatures keep me grounded :( ... however it seems we're heading to a good year here at the farm :o.

Ricardo, thank you for your kind words. The pictures of your beautifully finished, uncovered MM are still in front of the my reference MM binder in the workshop. The build might be a kind of therapy for me...

So no signs of El Niño yet? The Japanese weather forecasting agency has forecasted the return of the El Niño weather pattern in the second half of 2017.

Forgive my ignorance, what are you normally growing?

... not even in for a tiny evening flight? ;)

Installed hard Barry mounts (#15) and will re-tune carburettors.
Hope that will reduce vibrations...

Sadly it was a work of art...and ....due to hard times...and no job I had to sell it to pay the bills.....the GOOD news...is that it will BE flying soon...a friend purchased it...and its almost ready for covering...the new owner is doing a great job...im a little JEALOUS....He has a 100hp rotax for power...which will give 120 knots cruise :)

and now Im employed again.......so cutting up the raft,,,to stay afloat to keep the sharks at a distance is a terrible experience ...however I still have my hangar, my minmax and my Rans :)

Dick, Larry, Bruce, Bob H ,Ricardo and the Ace...have been great support...and a few other nameless angels

Bills and taxes never stop................neither does the will to.. ;) FLY

cheers Arthur

Quoted from Arthur Withy

Sadly it was a work of art...and ....due to hard times...and no job I had to sell it to pay the bills.....the GOOD news...is that it will BE flying soon...a friend purchased it...and its almost ready for covering...the new owner is doing a great job...im a little JEALOUS....He has a 100hp rotax for power...which will give 120 knots cruise :)

and now Im employed again.......so cutting up the raft,,,to stay afloat to keep the sharks at a distance is a terrible experience ...however I still have my hangar, my minmax and my Rans :)

Dick, Larry, Bruce, Bob H ,Ricardo and the Ace...have been great support...and a few other nameless angels

Bills and taxes never stop................neither does the will to.. ;) FLY

cheers Arthur

Wow Arthur, what a story and how nice that you were able to keep your dreams alive.
It's great that other people were there and gave you in one way or the other support and motivation.

Life can be a b****, but as long as your health is not letting you down, there is no way a real pilot will go down and give up. The weather changes so does ones hardship (or luck)...

Keep going and do what you have to do!

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

... So no signs of El Niño yet? The Japanese weather forecasting agency has forecasted the return of the El Niño weather pattern in the second half of 2017.

Forgive my ignorance, what are you normally growing?

... not even in for a tiny evening flight? ;)

Growing tangerines and avocados...
Weather is very hot and extreme rain on desert areas are creating avalanches along the Peruvian coast. They are called "huaycos" in Indian language.
"El Niño" is bad news and the way the climate is behaving I wouldn't surprise.

The fuselage is dismantled again and ready for covering...

Hmm its like a gorgeous lady......naked is always better...LOL :o

... and the first wing, in its basic structure, is ready for glueing...
Happy

That is looking so good, Reto! It's really coming together now.

Hope you can get your engine vibration sorted. Maybe somebody here has the same engine & could help?

Glad you're posting again - we've missed you :)

Bruce

Reto your work is so clean it is almost a shame to cover it. I found the covering process to be a very satisfying portion of the build so have fun with the iron. :)

Quoted from Arthur Withy

Hmm its like a gorgeous lady......naked is always better...LOL :o

My sincere apologies for having exposed her like this... ;D

Quoted from beragoobruce

That is looking so good, Reto! It's really coming together now.

Hope you can get your engine vibration sorted. Maybe somebody here has the same engine & could help?

Glad you're posting again - we've missed you :)

Bruce

Bruce, I am in my workshop... LOL

Today I started the registration process. Here in Thailand it may take up to 6-8 month month to get all the approvals. Must get more efficient now to match completion day with approval window... Just learned today that they will require COM/XPDR/ELT!!!

And yes, if there is anyone on ETLB who has experience with Hirth 3202 and Dellorto Carbs (or similar), please get in touch with me... Thanks...

Cheers
Reto

Yes ...I was up all last night thinking about the possibilities ....LOL 8)

Quoted from aeronut

Reto your work is so clean it is almost a shame to cover it. I found the covering process to be a very satisfying portion of the build so have fun with the iron. :)

You are right it will be a little sad to cover her, but I am actually looking forward to it... Still month away though!

Covering is a most satisfying experience...it make you realise your dream ..it simply turns into a flying machine ...

Covering is a huge step! I found it rewarding and enjoyable! But I wasn't cover a work of art like yours!!! Now rib stitching.... well that was up there with varnishing!!! Once the plane is covered it is such a huge step! It make one realize how close you are to flying her!!
Great work!
Brian

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Covering is a huge step! I found it rewarding and enjoyable! But I wasn't cover a work of art like yours!!! Now rib stitching.... well that was up there with varnishing!!! Once the plane is covered it is such a huge step! It make one realize how close you are to flying her!!
Great work!
Brian

Brian, covering is still month away, as I am intending to do the whole Max in one go... and I am terrified of rib stitching! :o
Reto

The magic gusset bevel machine...
It's never too late... :)

On the "gusset machine": This is the sort of thing that saves huge amounts of time. My opinion after years of shop work: Don't go out and by a large number of fancy tools you might need, unless you have money to burn, but every time you think of a tool or jig that will make a job go faster or better, don't hesitate just buy it or make it. Tools save so much time that trying to "save money" by not buying them isn't really the cost effective solution.

Just think how much time Reto saved by making a simple gusset bevel cutting jig.

Tom

Reto, rib stitching is pretty simple one you memorize the knots.

You do need a curved needle to get around the compression members, I made my own using some music wire, hammering one end flat then drilling a hole in the flat spot.

You will find two videos on my site that show how to rib stitch and why you should:
https://ulbuilder.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/rib-stitching/amp/

Quoted from Tom

On the "gusset machine": This is the sort of thing that saves huge amounts of time. My opinion after years of shop work: Don't go out and by a large number of fancy tools you might need, unless you have money to burn, but every time you think of a tool or jig that will make a job go faster or better, don't hesitate just buy it or make it. Tools save so much time that trying to "save money" by not buying them isn't really the cost effective solution.

Just think how much time Reto saved by making a simple gusset bevel cutting jig.

Tom

Tom you are absolutely right... I lost quite a lot of time with manual repetitions...
Reto

Quoted from ulbuilder

Reto, rib stitching is pretty simple one you memorize the knots.

You do need a curved needle to get around the compression members, I made my own using some music wire, hammering one end flat then drilling a hole in the flat spot.

You will find two videos on my site that show how to rib stitch and why you should:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ulbuilder.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/rib-stitching/amp/

Heya Ulbuilder, thank you for the great link, it will be very helpful when the time comes...
Cheers
Reto

Quoted from bigbrixx1

Here you see the long curved needle maneuvering around the compression struts

Good morning Brian, thank you for the great pictures with instruction... Will be happy to refer to it when the time comes... :)
Cheers
Reto

The magic "safe the trailing edges" machine...
Before they were between 11/32" and 7/16"... now 11/32" - 3/8" :)

There is Marine plywood provided for the aileron spar webs. Is that quality/strength wise acceptable?
Thanks for inputs...

True marine grade plywood is much better than anything like exterior or cabinet grade plywood. It certainly shares many of the characteristics which distinguish aircraft plywood, such as thinner, more uniform veneers, and hot press gluing. It doesn't necessarily meet the standards of true aircraft plywood. However it may meet them. You'd have to either see if the source has guaranteed them to meet the MIL specifications which are used for aircraft plywood, which they very well may have, construct your own tests to verify the standards, or just trust that the kit supplies the correct materials. I presume you have an Aircraft Spruce catalog which lists MIL specs that their plywood conforms to. If you can't find reassurance that the plywood meets the aircraft specifications, I can probably find anything you need to verify that it does for yourself.

Tom

Quoted from Reto S

The magic "safe the trailing edges" machine...
Before they were between 11/32" and 7/16"... now 11/32" - 3/8" :)

Perhaps a typo or maybe I'm misunderstanding or missing something? If you're talking about the aileron trailing edges, isn't the aileron material (RS-15) 3/8" X 1" X 3/32" ? Just curious.

Lynn

Quoted from lake_harley

Perhaps a typo or maybe I'm misunderstanding or missing something? If you're talking about the aileron trailing edges, isn't the aileron material (RS-15) 3/8" X 1" X 3/32" ? Just curious.

Lynn

Hi Lynn

Yes, my aileron trailing edges were quite uneven on the wider side (where the ribs are glued).
Instead of 3/8" they were between 11/32" and 7/16".
Got them back to 11/32" - 3/8", without disturbing the very rear 3/32".
Quite a surgery though...

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Tom

True marine grade plywood is much better than anything like exterior or cabinet grade plywood. It certainly shares many of the characteristics which distinguish aircraft plywood, such as thinner, more uniform veneers, and hot press gluing. It doesn't necessarily meet the standards of true aircraft plywood. However it may meet them. You'd have to either see if the source has guaranteed them to meet the MIL specifications which are used for aircraft plywood, which they very well may have, construct your own tests to verify the standards, or just trust that the kit supplies the correct materials. I presume you have an Aircraft Spruce catalog which lists MIL specs that their plywood conforms to. If you can't find reassurance that the plywood meets the aircraft specifications, I can probably find anything you need to verify that it does for yourself.

Tom

Thank you Tom for your input. I remember we discussed this issue already during the fuselage construction, which turned out Ok with the "kit marine ply". This time I was just a bit more insecure regarding its suitability.

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Reto S

Hi Lynn

Yes, my aileron trailing edges were quite uneven on the wider side (where the ribs are glued).
Instead of 3/8" they were between 11/32" and 7/16".
Got them back to 11/32" - 3/8", without disturbing the very rear 3/32".
Quite a surgery though...

Cheers
Reto

Thanks for the clarification. The numbers certainly didn't "click" for me, but now I follow you. :)

Lynn

Finally some serious progress has happened in the shed. The first wing has turned out OK (about 1 month)... Nose and aileron ply to go. Put myself under an end of year deadline together with PPL renewal and lengthy local MM registration process... :o

Pics:
Wing reversed, magic router again :) , tank section, nose rib section...

Cheers from +100F

Looks great Reto! Really good that you're making such meaningful progress. And now you have defined a target! Brave man.

Wings look too beautiful to cover. Consider covering with transparent Tedlar fillm, like the Lazair. I thought about this, but chickened out. Your work would look like a sculpture.

Bruce

Beautiful work.

Tom

Quoted from beragoobruce

Looks great Reto! Really good that you're making such meaningful progress. And now you have defined a target! Brave man.

Wings look too beautiful to cover. Consider covering with transparent Tedlar fillm, like the Lazair. I thought about this, but chickened out. Your work would look like a sculpture.

Bruce

YOU CAN DO THAT?

Anyone else suffering clamp-envy? Also, is that a work shop or a hospital? ;)

You can never be too rich or have too many clamps.

Tom

Quoted from PUFF

YOU CAN DO THAT?

WHY NOT?

You'd need to check the specs on what Lazair used. This http://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/products-and-services/membranes-and-films/pvf-films/documents/DEC_Tedlar_GeneralProperties.pdf may help to compare with the properties of Dacron. about the same density, but no paint, which would save a lot of weight AND display the beautiful wood structure it covers. Prolly cheaper than Oratex, but I don't know prices.

Sorry to drift on your thread, Reto.

Bruce

edit: from HBA, see http://www.ultralightnews.ca/articles/tedlarinformation.htm & http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/hipec.html

Apparently UV can cause attaching tape adhesive to soften, though I guess most (all?) Max owners keep their aircraft hangared or in a trailer.

Quoted from beragoobruce

Looks great Reto! Really good that you're making such meaningful progress. And now you have defined a target! Brave man.

Wings look too beautiful to cover. Consider covering with transparent Tedlar fillm, like the Lazair. I thought about this, but chickened out. Your work would look like a sculpture.

Bruce

What a great idea Bruce, but unfortunately I have already imported the PolyFiber products required for conventional covering (with great difficulties & costs). Therefore we should try to convince an other builder to do it... :)

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Tom

Beautiful work.

Tom

Thank you Tom.

Reto

Quoted from Bob Daly

Anyone else suffering clamp-envy? Also, is that a work shop or a hospital? ;)

Bob, clamp-envy is a "sin"... :)
I would be lost without them... :)

My workshop is my sanatorium, it keeps me sane.
Not joking, I am suffering a chronic sinus disorder and have to keep dust exposure to an absolute minimum.

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Tom

You can never be too rich or have too many clamps.

Tom

There is an upper limit though, its when the missus complains...

Quoted from beragoobruce

WHY NOT?

Sorry to drift on your thread, Reto.

Bruce

No problem at all Bruce...

It really is fun when building, that everything comes together and it is right to the plan. Looks great! :)

Quoted from aeronut

It really is fun when building, that everything comes together and it is right to the plan. Looks great! :)

Thank you aeronut, it's quite a journey, but all worth it!

The 1st wing takes further shape with heavy clamp action (again)...
Beveled the nose rib ply along the top spar for future smooth(er) fabric transition.
As usual 1 coat of 15% Tim-bor plus 3 thin coats of West System are also applied inside the nose section.

My former Swiss flying school (some 36 years ago!) has accepted my request for a tailored PPL revalidation training. Some of the people are still working there after all that time... Will commence training after passing my medical.

Beautiful work as ever, Reto.

Bruce

After 3 weeks of training in my former flying school, I am happy to report that I have re-gained my EASA PPL.

Katana: PPL training
Piper L4: Taildrager extension
Slingsby Firefly: Light aerobatics, hampered by getting pale in the face...

The Thai authorities have granted a provisional 5 year permit for my MM.
Build update will follow...

Many congrats, Reto! I hope you'll soon be putting your licence to good use over the steamy jungles of Thailand. Be careful of elephants if you have to land out . . .

Bruce

YEEHAW ! You must be one of the happiest pilots in Thailand. Congratulations and well done. :)

Congrats Reto 8)

monte

Thank you Bruce, Aeronut and Monte for your kind words...

The r/h wing has finally been finished and found a safe place on the wall...
Some picture of the later building stage are attached below.
The rainy season has started very early this year with daily heavy showers, sometimes during the whole night. Luckily no flooding though...

Aileron...

Used "Brian clamps" (tnx Brian :)) and cable ties.

Wing tip and tank...

With a heat gun I was able to get the wing tip to follow the rib profile.
Doubled up support bridges for the fastener screws seem strong enough.

The tank installation is straight forward and two RS-8 pieces hold the tank in place.

You are doing a great job! The fun of covering is getting closer than you think. :)

Wing trailing edge closure...

Thank you Bruce for your great documentation on the topic in your ETLB log!

At first I was quite hesitant because I worried about the resulting straightness of the two trailing edges (after glueing the curved ply)... Luckily all turned out straight and the gaps between the aileron and the trailing edges are quite uniform.

The only way to glue and hold the curved ply in place was by using tons of 3M Magic tape. The actual trailing edges needed a precise cut so the resulting angle would match the radius of the ply.

And then the never ending Timbor (1x) and West System (3x) coating for the tropics.
It is really a pain to do it properly... :o

The finished wing...

... safely up on the wall...

Really beautiful and inspiring work.

Tom

Reto, your work is truly outstanding. I know I've said it before, but when I see how beautiful your wing looks, it would just look so good to cover it in transparent Tedlar film.

I totally agree with you how tedious it is hand brushing on all the protective varnish/epoxy over the interior parts. Worst part of the build for me. But it must be especially important to do a thorough job in Thailand, because of your tropical heat & humidity.

Good to see you enclosed the rear wing section at the aileron L/E. I did it both to stop the T/E curl that has been reported here, but more to seal the wing against mud wasps that build huge mud nests everywhere. Also any other of our wildlife - everything in Australia is out to get you.

Keep up the good work. Makes me want to build again. . .

Bruce

Seems a shame to have to cover that....

What did you use to seal the rear of the wing at the aileron?

Quoted from aeronut

You are doing a great job! The fun of covering is getting closer than you think. :)

I really hope to get the job done till the end of the year...

Quoted from Tom

Really beautiful and inspiring work.

Tom

Thank you Tom, I am trying... :o

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Good to see you enclosed the rear wing section at the aileron L/E. I did it both to stop the T/E curl that has been reported here, but more to seal the wing against mud wasps that build huge mud nests everywhere. Also any other of our wildlife - everything in Australia is out to get you.

Keep up the good work. Makes me want to build again. . .

Bruce

Good morning Bruce

Yup, that's why I decided to close it too and your solution seemed the most elegant one... :)

Having our MG lady in the shed for some mayor upgrades, but can't wait to continue with the remaining wing...

Just pick one:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/building_materials/bm/menus/kits/index.html

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from Sterling Silver

What did you use to seal the rear of the wing at the aileron?

Birch, 0.8mm

So many possibilities to build, Reto, & so little money :( See the 'How much $$$' thread on this page for what I'd like to build next.

Your MGBGTV8 looks so good. So now you have more demands on your time: 2 x ladies + 1 x cat + 1 x aeroplane. You will have to prioritise!

Bruce

Quoted from beragoobruce

So many possibilities to build, Reto, & so little money :( See the 'How much $$$' thread on this page for what I'd like to build next.

Your MGBGTV8 looks so good. So now you have more demands on your time: 2 x ladies + 1 x cat + 1 x aeroplane. You will have to prioritise!

Bruce

Great choice Bruce, the Menestrel is a fine looking airplane and additionally your wife will get a reward for her everlasting patience... ;) How many different rib jigs are required for construction of the half elliptical outer wing section?

I wished my old lady would be a BGTV8, had to settle with just a CGT. At the moment the priorities are quite clear though...

Cheers
Reto

D'Oh! Forgot it was a CGT. Same colour as my V8, plus my brain is fading fast. . .

Yes, lots of rib jigs on that Menestrel wing. But you've got to love an elliptical wing. And the build is partly the point of the project, as it was with my Max, so I don't mind if it takes a while.

Best

Bruce

Bruce, if elliptical wing what about the Isaacs Spitfire? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B16biTRzECw

Caught a nasty sinus infection, but now the second wing takes shape (U/S for 3 weeks).
Having the first wing as a template safes time... :)
Ready for glueing ribs, anti-drag diagonals and compression members to spars.

Sorry to hear you where under the weather. Wing looks great!Hope your build is coming along and you will soon be sending us videos of your first flight. :)

Reto,

Keep on posting up the pics of your build as you go along, and I think that when you've finished it and it's standing on the apron, you should take lots of photos (many in close-up) of all the detailing you've put into the finished aircraft. Then I think TEAM should use your build photos as THE text book of how to build the 'max. They should break it into chapters such as Jigs, Left Wing, Right Wing, Fuselage, etc., and they should include a copy of the book with every set of plans or kit they send out in order to show others exactly how it should be done, and what it should look like when completed.

Your workmanship is stunning, as is your photography, and the photos are each worth a thousand words of explanation of where each bit should go, how it should be cut, glued, clamped, etc., and how it should look once assembled and sealed with epoxy. The picture of the inside of your wing leading edge was a thing of beauty, and it's a shame that such workmanship will forever be hidden, but yours is definitely the text book image of build quality that all other builders should aspire to.

Best regards,

Sorry to hear of your sinus problems, Reto, but I'm glad you're back in the workplace.

I totally agree with Bob's comments in the post above. Your workmanship is truly outstanding. And no doubt this will be reflected in a beautiful finished aeroplane that flies as well as it looks.

Do keep the reports coming. They help those of us reduced to pottering around at home, putting up shelves or tiling the bathroom, when we'd much rather be building a plane. There don't seem to be many building at the moment, but I'm sure your work will inspire some new Max builds in the future.

Bruce

Quoted from aeronut

Sorry to hear you where under the weather. Wing looks great!Hope your build is coming along and you will soon be sending us videos of your first flight. :)

Thank you aeronut. In a earlier message I pledged to finish my build by the end of 2017... Trying hard.
I wished that I would be in a similar productive build phase as Bruce was, when he surprised us all with his beautifully finished Max... :)

Quoted from bob.hood

Reto,

Keep on posting up the pics of your build as you go along, and I think that when you've finished it and it's standing on the apron, you should take lots of photos (many in close-up) of all the detailing you've put into the finished aircraft. Then I think TEAM should use your build photos as THE text book of how to build the 'max. They should break it into chapters such as Jigs, Left Wing, Right Wing, Fuselage, etc., and they should include a copy of the book with every set of plans or kit they send out in order to show others exactly how it should be done, and what it should look like when completed.

Your workmanship is stunning, as is your photography, and the photos are each worth a thousand words of explanation of where each bit should go, how it should be cut, glued, clamped, etc., and how it should look once assembled and sealed with epoxy. The picture of the inside of your wing leading edge was a thing of beauty, and it's a shame that such workmanship will forever be hidden, but yours is definitely the text book image of build quality that all other builders should aspire to.

Best regards,

Bob

Thank you for your kind words.
Certainly it would be very rewarding if this blog would inspire some, perhaps still hesitant, new builders.
I like your idea of a step by step picture guide. The only issue with that is that no building technique is written in stone so to speak. There are "many ways leading to Rome" and in this forum I have seen many other builders producing incredible results with whatever tools they have at hand.

In my opinion it takes me too long to get the desired level of quality, but perhaps the doing is more important than the outcome... ;)
Therefore my accumulated hours have to remain a secret...

Your Max looks very cool!

Cheers
Reto

Quoted from beragoobruce

Sorry to hear of your sinus problems, Reto, but I'm glad you're back in the workplace.

I totally agree with Bob's comments in the post above. Your workmanship is truly outstanding. And no doubt this will be reflected in a beautiful finished aeroplane that flies as well as it looks.

Do keep the reports coming. They help those of us reduced to pottering around at home, putting up shelves or tiling the bathroom, when we'd much rather be building a plane. There don't seem to be many building at the moment, but I'm sure your work will inspire some new Max builds in the future.

Bruce

Thank you Bruce.

I hope all well at your end and you are enjoying the cool season down under.
It must be incredible to fly in such pleasing conditions.

Logic dictates that there are only a limited number of house fixes, shelves and bathrooms to be dealt with.
It's time to start your Menestrel project!

I certainly wished I could be more productive...

Reto

It has been a while since my last upload. I sat the Thai air law exam and passed. Next thing happening, supported by many, many documents, should be the (Thai) CAA license validation.

The L/H wing takes shape. The process has been already documented with text at an earlier stage for the R/H wing.

Below some pictures (without further explanation) for the work done so far on the L/H wing (until nose ply glueing)...

Enjoy

Reto S.......I'm guessing your photo that's captioned "bevel nose ply with inverse router" is about beveling the edges of the nose ply to a knife edge so it lays flat against the spars rather than having a "ledge" that would be left with a blunt end? I'm unclear from your photo though just what you have pictured. I'm guessing it is a guide system to bevel the leading edge ply but apparently I'm too dense to understand how it works with a router.

Thanks, in advance, if you could clarify a bit.

As always though.....workmanship second to none!

Lynn

The pictures are excellent as is workmanship. How do you keep such a clean orderly workshop?? :)

Quoted from lake_harley

Reto S.......I'm guessing your photo that's captioned "bevel nose ply with inverse router" is about beveling the edges of the nose ply to a knife edge so it lays flat against the spars rather than having a "ledge" that would be left with a blunt end? I'm unclear from your photo though just what you have pictured. I'm guessing it is a guide system to bevel the leading edge ply but apparently I'm too dense to understand how it works with a router.

Thanks, in advance, if you could clarify a bit.

As always though.....workmanship second to none!

Lynn

Hi Lynn, I am terribly sorry for my late reply. My video blog project about the unbearable political situation in Europe diverted a lot of time and energy. You are absolutely right with your comment. The pre-bent nose ply section was gently pushed through the inverted router and its guide... I shall have a surprise though...

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