My brand new vintage Rotax 277 need to be break-in. Wondering if new era of alcohol additives fuel products acceptable. Here, our Shell gas station has E10. Any thought appreciated. Regards, Phil
I run ethanol free premium. That being said, I know people who run ethanol free regular, and some who have run 10% ethanol. Let's see what others on this forum have to say?
I ran E10 for a while in my 503 with no ill effects. Luckily we now have e-free premium at most gas stations now. Important is to make sure all of your components in the fuel stream are compatible with ethanol (including the tank, fuel lines, floats, needle seats etc). I had a 90's Kitfox with fiberglass tanks that was not compatible (unless I changed out the tanks - which was no small task).
The petroleum companies allow themselves to make quite significant changes to the formulation of the fuels they offer.
They know the modern computer controlled fuel injection systems will compensate the fuel/air mixture ratio for their fuels' composition and even the changes in their composition as the fuel ages in the fuel station or the tank.
With our engines we are the computer. Our inputs are the colour of the spark plugs and readings on the EGT gauge, and our outputs are mixture screw settings, jet sizes and needle positions. Not trying to be clever, it's just that that is how it seems to be now.
It applies very much to pre fuel injection classic motorcycles too.
I'll second that, with my old shovel head I can tell when the tanker has filled the 91 tank at the local small town gas station. I have to adjust the mix a bit then it's good till the next tankerload. Not many people buy it so it's usually only two or three times a summer but there's no question in my mind it's different, bike is perfect the whole time until that day it's refilled so I don't buy that it is "aging" or getting "stale"
Hi Be VERY CAREFUL with 100 LL aviation fuel. No e, but WAY TOO MUCH LEAD. Most all small aviation engines are built to take 80 octane. The C85 I put in my Chief will run with 70, LOL. Like was said above. The gas will run in the engine, but everything the gas passes through has got to be compatible. Ethanol also does a wonderful job of cleaning the inside of the tank, fuel lines, pumps and carb. Problem all that old varnish ends up in filters, screens and carb. Clogging that can be dangerous. Try your best to find ethanol free fuel. If the only thing you can find is premium, that is ok. If only regular, check with the engine mfg to see if it will run with the low octane. High octane is meant for higher compression engines. Running it in a low compression engine is a waist of money and lower power output. Bob
Hi; No lead is not bad for the engine (sort of). TOO MUCH is bad. Lead is the old way they used to lube the top end of the engines. Valves, guides, and ease the contact with the valve seats, In the early engines the intake valve seats were made of bronze. Very good stuff. With no lead gas the valve can wear right through the seat. Happened to my 1971 Datson. Had to make and install steel seats. Now the valve seats are made of hardened steel. Problem is we have old or old design engines. Two strokes will get along with out lead just fine. Your adding oil to the fuel anyway. Just try to use the proper octane for your engine. Make sure you check with the mfg. Bob
If you want to use 100LL you can add Decalin to the fuel:
"Decalin RunUp is approved for use with the new 100VLL (Very Low Lead) fuel announced by the FAA on Special Airworthiness Bulletin NE-11-55. Decalin RunUp contains two types of additive, one to reduce the negative effects of tetraethyl lead in aviation fuel and the other to improve the combustion efficiency, reduce combustion deposits and clean the fuel delivery system in aircraft. Users can expect the same level of engine cleanliness when using this fuel and Decalin RunUp as they saw with 100LL. "
Available from Aircraft Spruce. I use it in my 447. No fowling so far. Joe
I ran E10 for a while in my 503 with no ill effects. Luckily we now have e-free premium at most gas stations now. Important is to make sure all of your components in the fuel stream are compatible with ethanol (including the tank, fuel lines, floats, needle seats etc). I had a 90's Kitfox with fiberglass tanks that was not compatible (unless I changed out the tanks - which was no small task).
Rotax in E10 with no ill effect. May I asked if how many hours running you put on 503? Just curious since I have no other choice on fuel in our area. Also rotax float were plastic and no way to change this component. I may change the original team's plastics fuel tank but still realized flying this stuff this days a bit compromised. I just hope we could find ways to do it on safer side preparing on our intended recreation flying soon. Regards, Phil
I would not run 100LL in any 2-stoke engine unless it was the only available option. Two main reasons: 1. Cost - why would you want to spend more money for gas, with no real performance increase? Unless your engine is high performance and high compression and requires high octane to prevent detonation, then high octane is not needed nor has any benefit. If you want to throw money away, just send it to me! You may reason that high octane will burn leaner and get better MPG, which may be technically true, but you will NOT save the difference in the cost of gas to the extra little bit you squeezed out AND your 2-stroke engine will run hotter which can lead to seizure! Not Good! 2. Your 2-stoke may run worse and rapidly build up carbon/lead deposits; it should definitely be tuned to run LL and re-tuned to run on unleaded if switched back, who's got time for that!
I would not run ethanol gas in my 2-stoke ever, unless it was the last resort! And even then I would drain the remaining fuel as soon as I got to where i was going! The reasons are: 1. Like Bob mentioned above ethanol is a solvent, it will break down and dissolve materials not compatible with it. Is your ENTIRE fuel system ethanol compatible? Are you willing to risk an engine out off field landing due to clogged carburetor/filter? 2. Ethanol attracts and collects water moisture in vented fuel systems. Your fuel system is vented right? So unless you top off and seal your tanks after every flight, you are collecting water moisture in your tank. How much depends on several factors such as, the amount airspace in the tank, relative humidity and length of time. Do you check for water in your fuel system at its lowest point? Or did you just dain out enough to check in your fuel sample cup, but sucked water out of your tank and is now in the lines half way between the tanks and the engine (which will start and taxi fine but quit unexpectedly on climbout)? 3. Phase Separation - Watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJqjX9rKWbE) up to the 1:20 mark, I do not support this or any product! Phase Separation is the sludge that ends up stuck in your carburetor or fuel filter. Enough Said!!
So for the above reasons, I will only be using Non-Ethanol Gas in my two- stroke! I will have a gascolator at the lowest point in my fuel system and fuel filter at the highest point nearest the carb inlet. The compression ratio for my engine is 10.6/1 and Unleaded Non-Ethanol 91-93 Octane is RECOMMENDED for my engine by the MANUFACTURER. Luckily I have access to multiple Ethanol free gas stations in the ATL area and have no excuse not to use it exclusively. If you don't live in an area where Non-Ethanol gas is available, I've linked a video showing how to separate it out of gas. Of course I would hate to have to seperate the large amounts of fuel I would be using. I would try to find a boat dock, they usually are non-ethanol or you could even order a 55 gal barrel from a gas/oil distributor(initial cost & shipping may be a bit prohibitive). In the case that you absolutely have to use ethanol based gas, please use caution and take proper care of your fuel system!!
I had roughly 100 hours on it. Others were running E10 as well with their 503's, 582's and 447's. Non-E readily available now though in this area, so everyone has switched over. We also ran E10 in our 2 stroke sleds and outboards with no problems (other than maybe a slight performance hit and problems with filters and other plastic components). Often ran AVGAS in some of the higher performance applications. No problems with the floats (which were Bing and Mikuni variety). Just need to make sure you have the right type of "plastic" fuel tank that is ethanol compatible. What you have might be just fine, but check into it. I did also add Star Tron Enzyme Fuel treatment most of the time, which I was told helps with combating E laced fuels. Not sure if it made any difference, but was widely used in the sled and marine world so used it anyway.
Rotax in E10 with no ill effect. May I asked if how many hours running you put on 503? Just curious since I have no other choice on fuel in our area. Also rotax float were plastic and no way to change this component. I may change the original team's plastics fuel tank but still realized flying this stuff this days a bit compromised. I just hope we could find ways to do it on safer side preparing on our intended recreation flying soon. Regards, Phil
There is an E-free gas station approximately 22 minutes from me. I believe that E-free gas stores a lot longer, does it not? It seems to be, or cant be, depending on who you ask. If it does store longer, I'll probably just buy several flights worth at a time to store in a barrel or fuel caddy or two and just refuel once a month or two.
Hi To add a safe year of storage time to your fuel, add "Sta-Bil". Can be gotten at WallyWorld or auto parts. It works GREAT. Have lawn mower sat in garage for 6 years. Stable in gas. Didn't smell all that great, but ran just fine, LOL. Bob
There is an E-free gas station approximately 22 minutes from me. I believe that E-free gas stores a lot longer, does it not? It seems to be, or cant be, depending on who you ask. If it does store longer, I'll probably just buy several flights worth at a time to store in a barrel or fuel caddy or two and just refuel once a month or two.
Yes it will store fine. I've got some ethanol free gas I've used for two years in my weed eater. I bought a gallon, and have a newer 4-stroke engine and a very small yard; that engine just doesn't burn much fuel!! She runs and idles purrrrfect!
If I were you I would stick to 5-6 Gallon cans that are designed to safely hold & store gas. They are relatively cheap to buy and easy to carry one at a time. If you got a big drum, think about how heavy it will be at 30 or more gallons. And 22 minutes is nothing to drive for something you love to do! You're not crossing the Continental Divide!! LOL Your Plane only holds 5 gallons, right? I'm not familiar with the Kaw. 440 fuel burn rate, but it shouldn't be more than 2 gal an hour. Trust me a couple of hours in the air will be plenty long enough flight. Just plan it where you get 1 or 2 containers of gas a couple of days beforehand. And try to store you plane with the tank full, that way there is less head space in the tank and less chance of condensation build up. If you can seal or plug the vent cap, even better, just be sure to put a "Remove Before Flight" streamer on it!
Just because it means that I don't have to hold the heavy container up in the air when I'm first filling it.
But honestly, a few 5 gallon containers will do me just fine. Especially if I can just top them off every so often and get a good amount of flights out of them. And you are correct, the 103 mandated 5 gallons!
In a 2 stroke it doesn't take only a few pings of detonation to breakdown the boundary layer on the top of the piston and cause the piston to heat very quickly and end in a seizure. Fresh gas very important in a two stroke (especially in air use) which see's a lot of continuous high load. Storing gas under a head pressure of nitrogen helps a great deal to prevent loss of the light ends. Maybe be some differences to account for also in the winter and summer blends of fuel. Not to be a pain in the shorts here, but have seen too many 2 strokes go down due to old gas and continuous high load.(marine, air and snow). I personally never burn MOGAS gas older than 4 weeks when it has been sitting vented to the atmosphere (I just then drain it and burn it in the mower or truck). Avgas seems to hold up well in this regard however.
If I had to use only ethanol free fuel, I wouldn’t be able to fly my Minimax ever. Fresh ethanol fuel has always kept the engine run properly; humidity is above 80% in winter and 65 to 70% in summer, so it is important not to keep old fuel in the plastic tank. Needless to say, if could use ethanol free fuel I would go along with it but it just not available in this country and 100 LL is out of the question. That’s reality for all two stroke engines in this country.
A few points, but they are just experiences opinions and second-hand info.
Avgas 100LL will last a very long time without much degradation. Fuels with ethanol and other non-lead octane boosters, and added oil do not last a long time. I was advised to store fuel without oil and mix it in before fuelling up. My Minimax has the standard main tank which feeds into a home-made fibreglass tank for extra range. I use 5% ethanol Mogas (and try to use sexier fuel from the pumps when the Minimax will be unused) The fuel system and engine is still not dead.
Air space in the fuel tank is important while the aircraft sits: The tank has to be vented. Barometric pressure varies; we all know that. Those variations over days or a week will cause the tank to breathe in and out. Each breathe-in will pull more water vapour into the tank. Temperature cycles, condensation ... blah blah
Does some ethanol in the fuel help to accommodate some accidentally acquired water by dissolving it? Now that is not an opinion - it's a question!
and my understanding is that fuel with the same resistance to detonation (octane?) can have a different Octane rating labelled on the pump depending upon what definition for octane rating is used in the particular country the pump is in.
and my understanding is that fuel with the same resistance to detonation (octane?) can have a different Octane rating labelled on the pump depending upon what definition for octane rating is used in the particular country the pump is in.
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