What is the opinion of you (Oldtimers) for this (Noob) on using a closed rudder cable control system?  Do you feel it gives you better control of the rudder over the spring system?  Any pro's and con's?
I'm just funning you guys about the oldtimers do you remember that article  a couple months ago in the EAA  mag about hanger edict? It said your to throw out a insult when you enter the hanger.  It was a funny article.

Tom

I don't think there is anything you can do to have better control of the rudder than what we already have..

There is no springs in the rudder control except the ones on the pedals and they only keep the pedal from falling backward and have nothing to do with rudder control..

I do have compression springs on my tailwheel..

Fyi a closed system is having no springs on the peddles but have a cable between the two and a cable pulley  to adjust cable tension.  Bill I think you did this if I remember?

Tom

You may have to defend this concept. People seem to get attached to their springs

It's been my experience that many people do like a spring-centering system on both their stick and rudder.  I like to taxi-dance with the rudder pedals, but I do like a mild centering effect on the stick... in both directions.  Of course, if you have tabs or a wheel crank....

See...Tole ya. Nobody believes it.

Its a question  that my friend that has built many planes and a AP asked me why is it a open system.  He just said that a closed system has better control without having to have as much pressure on both peddles.  I didn't have a answer for him so I asked.

Thanks for the input.

Tom

What Harless Said..............

The "CLOSED SYSTEM'" is only something else that could go wrong and possibly cause a problem if it should get fouled..

Agreed, One less thing to break.

Ya your right things can go wrong.  But I would hate to try to fly with full rudder if I loose a cable connection because a simple spring is pulling it.  Simple isn't always best.  

Just a little food for the mind.

Tom

That's the beauty of it, the springs aren't absolutely necessary for flight...
They're only there to keep enough tension on the pedals to keep them upright while the pilot is not in the aircraft, or doesn't have his/her feet on them.

That is outstanding work TTT! I will be doing that in the future on mine for sure! Iv'e got to pull it all out to move the pedals forward anyway, so why not throw of few more hours in it now in order to have ease of service in the future... just makes since.

How difficult and pricey were those heel brakes? I really like them a lot and would like to do that on mine as well since it seems to be a straight forward set up. Do you mind me asking where you got the parts? Thanks for the help!

To be fair I should point out that my image does not show the cable guard that was added later to keep the cable from jumping the pulley. Those who have experienced the smoothness of a closed system are unlikely to want to return to anything less. As far as asymmetrical tension on the cables....never noticed it. Never thought about it. Maximum deflection of any control surface in a Max would be rare. After five years I have detected no noticeable wear on any part of the system, and it has never been a problem. There' not much complexity to a cable pulley and a two foot length of cable. It's just something else you have to monitor during inspections, primarily for pulley wear. Yes, it is more work than hanging a couple of springs. I'm not biased against springs. It's your choice.

[quote=93]Maximum deflection of any control surface in a Max would be rare.


I find myself using maximum rudder control a lot because it operates  with the tailwheel..  and sometimes because I need all the rudder I can get, like during a gusty crosswind landing..

I also use maximum aileron deflection and maximum elevator deflection while taxiing in various windy situations..

Harless Makes some good points, and I more properly should have said "in flight." Of course we do hit the limits during ground ops (except for the ailerons, which will only hit the limits if we could somehow get our legs out of the way). I fabricated my system from early on and have never used the springs. An analogy for how the closed system feels might be to imagine a couple of pulleys with a rubber ring stretched between them. You tug on the band and it just smoothly rotates around the pulleys. It's hard to describe it exactly...there's just no slack or floppiness with it all interconnected. No spring noise. I keep trying to wrap my head around how the pedals might move at different rates as the system pivots, but I can't quite visualize it. I think the system must self-equalize. I certainly have never noticed any jumpiness in it as it pivots. Building this system is not really much work. A few easily fabricated Aluminum and steel pieces. The most annoying task is fabricating the cable ends and adding clevises (or whatever your choice might be) for detaching the cables from the pedals. Again...it's your choice, but whatever you choose...you can't have mine!

Here it is with guards in place:

Quoted from TreeTopsTom

Guess I can sort of imagine the difference. My guess on the differential pivot of the rudder (because of the horn shape) and corresponding (expected) difference in pedal travel is that the difference is taken up in the slack in the cable (either right or left side depending on which pedal you are stepping on). Since the difference is probably minimal & the cables are never (or not) supposed to be under any kind of high tension. Therefore, even if the closed loop cable & pulley portion of the system were adjusted (tight) with little to no slack, It would not stress the pulley or any other portion of the cables. Guess I will just leave the springs untill I run out of other things to do which I guess means I will most likely have the spring system forever.                            ttt  

I think, and it appears on the plans, that the cable attachment points on the rudder control horn and the rudder hinge are designed to be in the same plane, so there shouldn't be any differential in cable travel between the left and right cables. If the cable attachment points on the control horn were ahead or behind the rudder pivot then there would be potential for cables having slack and/or tight spots. That make sense?

Lynn

I should learn the we don't question the CREATOR in here!  Lol

Here is what I was told a aerospace engineer:  A open control system is ok if the cables don't change any directions.  If any pulleys or guides that change the direction the cable is is routed a closed system should be used.  

Tom

I'd like to apolagize for stating things that were NOT true.. What Lynn posted was correct.. There is no difference in the movements of the rudder cables..

In my mind the rudder horn was angled to the rear but it's not.

I hope I'm forgiven and didn't offend anyone..

Well Harless, you certainly demonstrated how easy it is to put doubt into everyone's minds! I, for one, am relieved. I was beginning to fear age had severely diminished my logical thought processes. I was beginning to envision the violent snapping of my cable while in flight. You guys can still keep your pitiful little springs.

Quoted from tjspindler

Ya your right things can go wrong.  But I would hate to try to fly with full rudder if I loose a cable connection because a simple spring is pulling it.  Simple isn't always best.  

Just a little food for the mind.

Tom

TJ, if you loose a cable connection, the spring will be the LEAST of your worries.

Quoted from Harless Greear

I'd like to apolagize for stating things that were NOT true.. What Lynn posted was correct.. There is no difference in the movements of the rudder cables..

In my mind the rudder horn was angled to the rear but it's not.

I hope I'm forgiven and didn't offend anyone..

Thanks Harless! I thought my geometry was correct. I'll give credit to my Sophmore High School Geometry teacher, Mr. Hilpert  

Lynn
.

On the contrary harless of all the controls  we have that's the one we need the least.  We have been told that we have to use that rudder all the time and for every thing we do.  The rudder just makes us look better making our maneuvers.  I have trained 80 or more people to fly rc aircraft and not a single person has used the rudder until after they have soloed.  Then I teach how to add rudder control for use in flight. Ground control is something different.  If I loose rudder control I would like it to just weather vain behind me not be pulled to one side because of a spring even ever so slightly.  Too many people thing the rudder makes the plane turn and that is what gets a lot of people in trouble.  If you think I'm full of BS read the book Stick and Rudder its a great read on the theory even if it was written in 1944.  It talks about the kind of flying we all do and love with our simple little airplanes.

Tom

To tell you the truth I'm not pro or con of how we connect out rudders it was just a interesting question I had and by the the many responses here so did many others.  Thanks for the info!  Now I have to come up with the next question we all can hash out passionately!  Lol

Tom

My max is rudder plane and I use it totally when I'm taking pictures..   I've landed without ailerons when they froze up but I can't land withour a rudder.. My plane will not come out of a turn without using the rudder..

Tom, Don't you watach the news?? Zimmerman and I were both AQUITTED...

Damn crackers!!  Lol

Tom

Quoted from Harless Greear

My max is rudder plane and I use it totally when I'm taking pictures..   I've landed without ailerons when they froze up but I can't land withour a rudder.. My plane will not come out of a turn without using the rudder..

Harless, just for clarification, are you saying the ailerons alone won't roll the plane back level, or that it takes ailerons and rudder to roll out in a coordinated manor?  Having not yet flown a Max I'm just wondering if that's the normal and expected way it should work.  Either way this is good to know as I imagine I'd be more than a little concerned if I were making a first flight in a Max and the ailerons wouldn't roll me level.

Tom, You just busted my bubble..

If I hold the rudder neutral and not move it, I can bank and come back to level but i'ts not pretty... It I let the rudder weathervane and bank the plane, It will not come back to  level with the ailerons, it only turns more the way the bank is..

I flew 2.2 hours today and when I landed I had a flat tire and had to be towed to the hangar..

You must have a lot of adverse yaw from your ailerons and that side slip kicks the rudder over when u let it weather vain.  Ya I understand whats happening.  Adverse yaw sucks if it wasn't for that we wouldn't that darn vertical flipper!!

Have you ever read Stick and Rudder?  I think its the best book for people who fly slow taildraggers.

Tom

Looks like you weren't acquitted after all

That's too funny Bill!  And I don't even carry a gun.

Tom