Bob, Harless a question about oil. Its for sure 20w40 or 20w50 because others are just too thin. But what about MOS2 Liqui Moly additives ? http://www.liqui-moly.com.au/products/oil-additives/ I have no filter on this engine.
Hey Peter; During the summer months I would use the 20-50 oil. Harless and I both use the same kind of oil. The racing only because the oil manufactures have snuck out most of the anti wear additives in regular oil. In your case Peter, use a good grade of 20-50 in the summer and use the STP if available or the Moly lub. One warning here. Make sure you break in the engine after overhaul with just the straight 20-40 or the 20-50. NO additives till the rings seat in. If your lube is too good, LOL, your rings will not "seat" in and it will burn oil and probably smoke some. Bob
Hey Peter; During the summer months I would use the 20-50 oil. Harless and I both use the same kind of oil. The racing only because the oil manufactures have snuck out most of the anti wear additives in regular oil. In your case Peter, use a good grade of 20-50 in the summer and use the STP if available or the Moly lub. One warning here. Make sure you break in the engine after overhaul with just the straight 20-40 or the 20-50. NO additives till the rings seat in. If your lube is too good, LOL, your rings will not "seat" in and it will burn oil and probably smoke some. Bob
I think the additives you might be referring to is ZDDP. I think it's a lot of different things, but if memory serves the main one is Zinc. It's a key anti-scuff ingredient to prevent problems with flat tappet lifters on the camshaft lobes. I first heard about the issue on performance engines running flat tappet cams. I sell circle track racing parts. Cams could "go flat" in a 20-30 minute break in period. Racing oil will have more ZDDP than the current crop of "automotive" oils. The ZDDP was reduced/eliminated from oil because if created problems for catalyc converters.
Another oil that might be worth trying is oil intended for motorcycles with wet clutches. The clutches can't tolerate the additives in the newer ratings oils. The oil rating of the motorcycle oil I currently use is API rated SF/SG/SJ. Newer "automotive" oils are up to SN and maybe beyond. The "older" rated oil like the SF still has more of the ZDDP, I think.
Yet another possibility is oil intended for diesel engines, like Rotella from Shell. It has a different rating system than automotive oils so you woun't find the "S" rating like SF.
I'm not an oil expert by any stretch, but I've heard and read about it a fair amount. If nothing else it will give you some ideas to begin your own research.
ZDDP, Zinc dialyldithiophosphate, is a compound that was introduced over 70 years ago and regularly added to motor oils. Its claim to fame is that it was the most cost effective metal on metal anti-wear additive…….and that is no legend. The compound was originally developed for use in airplane engines, but very quickly was found to be effective in car and truck engines for the anti-wear protection, in particular associated with flat tappets, overhead cam lobes, buckets and followers and the associated lifters where there is considerable pressure generated at the metal to metal interface and wear of the surface is known to be prevalent.
All tests that we’ve reviewed conclude that ZDDP is effective in moderating the wear, when formulated properly with base stock oils. ZDDP is also known to have anti-oxidant and corrosion resistant properties which are very useful in preventing aging of the internal combustion engine.
Over the last 40 years there has been considerable pressure to reduce the use of ZDDP in motor oil applications because of long term human toxicity concerns, and the fact that they are considered to be toxic to aquatic wildlife with long lasting effects. This can be alleviated with proper safety and disposal practices.
Further, influencing the decision is that catalytic converter life times are decreased by contamination with Zinc and Phosphates, and hence a drive to decrease the use of the additive to lower concentrations and in some cases its elimination.
As engine oil manufacturers decreased the concentration of ZDDP in motor oils over the last 20 years concerns became apparent about the impact on wear in engines, both classic and modern. It is now clear that modern passenger car engines are quite different in their need for ZDDP. Many are multivalve overhead cam engines with lower spring pressures. Those modern engines that still use an overhead valve arrangement use roller lifters instead of flat tappets and hence have lower pressure metal to metal contact and consequently require lower performance additives.
However the impact on classic engines was more concerning. There are reports from several years ago that problems were manifested in the rapid wear and almost total destruction of the camshaft and lifters in freshly overhauled engines. Some have blamed this problem on poor quality rebuilds, and also that the replacement lifters which were not meeting hardness specifications. But this problem is also attributed to the appearance of lubrication problems during the “run in” or “break in” period. The benefits of ZDDP are, after all, especially important during the break-in period for camshafts and lifters, and it makes sense that the excessive wear and destruction of parts will show up in recently overhauled engines well before we see it in higher mileage motors.
So these are some of our conclusions. These types of problems are never simple, but as a result of our reading we would offer the following observations:
Consider using ZDDP as an additive in the motor oil during the run in period on a rebuilt classic engine. We are presently doing this on our rebuilt Jaguar 3.4Litre engine for the Mark 2. Be careful with the concentration of ZDDP used in your break in oil, as over dosing can cause increased wear – more is not always better! Always refer to the manufacturers specs and measure well. Consider using in your classic, motor oil which specifically contains ZDDP. Valvoline, for example, has a range of products as do. If you prefer, add ZDDP to your normal engine oil, making sure that you measure properly and achieve the manufacturers recommended concentration levels.
And remember, the ZDDP additive can help ensure a happy and long lived motoring.
when i rebuild engines...i spread a thin coat of STP or motor medic ( Motor Honey ) on all my bearing surfaces...journals....timing gears...etc. one of the hardest things for an engine is a dry start....i even coat the cylinder walls ands piston with it. i have got factory short blocks where they used a white lithium grease towards the same end. if the cylinders were honed or cross hatched they will wear in fine...if they werent they will take a lot longer to break in. the best thing you can do with any new engine or newly rebuilt one is to follow the factory proceedures for breaking it in. if there are none listed prime all oil lines with a drill if possible....give ample warm up....slower run ups..etc. check bolts ...retighten and/or retorque....check your settings ( valve lifter, etc. )...basically baby it for awhile and change the oil after a few hours of operation and at shorter invertals until broken in. i have seen few additives really accomplish any good. stp gas...marvel mystery oil...lucas top end lube and things of that nature are worthwhile. they will make you run smoother and with less friction. STP oil....be careful when using thick stuff like this....add when engine is warm and running if possible. i have torn engines down that had a pan full of honey....it doesnt necessarily mix well. de-carboning agents and fuel injector cleaners...can be used on occasion but make sure they are compatable with the compnents of your fuel system.....for the most part a GOOD ( spend a little more $$ for a better oil ) grade oil is all you really need...and change it often. i have used racing oil in my air cooled engines since the late 60s to good success. they have better additives and also anti-foaming agents.
I added some stabilizer and lead substitute to the petrol, and also added MOS2 Liqui Moly to the oil. This oil is not a good racing oil, but a very basic, but I just changed it I though that I will replace the engine with the overhauled one, but its not going to happen that fast, since the engine is pretty good. I will fly an other 10- or so hours before replace it with a 20-50 racing oil also with some Liqui.
Its 90....100 F here, stormy, humid. The 084 performs very well 2 hours before sunset. 1 hour of flying, yesterday, and I hardly can wait for the afternoon today to fly again. Cyl head 300 F, oil 75 F no change. What a difference to two strokes ! Consumption is a laughing matter. I just simply dont know why the usage of 084 did not come into swing years ago.
I ordered a ground adjustable 150 cm long two blade reinforced composite prop for test. Cruising is really great with this engine, but I want to see what happens with take off distance if I go up to 3200 static RPM by adjusting those blades.
An other wonderful hour. I added some valve cleaner (just to make sure I burn those deposits). I burned 1.85 US GAL / hour while cruising 70 mph on 2/3 throttle. What else would you want ?
If those guys that are hording their 084's find Peters posts they are likely to increase the price of their engines. Sounds like you are really appreciating the switch to flying behind the 4 stroke Peter. Now your plane not only LOOKS like a real plane but SOUNDS like a real plane too....... LOL TTT
Currently there is one engine on the market I would trust to bolt on, not tear down and overhaul before. Thats Bob's spare with the re-drive. I was thinking about that to buy, but this one I fly currently will have hundreds of hours in it, I have a ring set for them. Maybe something to fiddle with for the winter months.... but its not sure. The other is overhauled waiting to work with a prop-hub , and I got one incomplete with unknown condition just for spare. So if I add all these I have well over 2000 hours stocked for flying with them.
Hi Peter; I really get a kick out of reading your posts. I can see you are really having fun with your Max's. I feel the same way about the little 084. a perfect engine for the minimax line. Between you and Harless, you two are the test engineers on this project. Please make sure you post the info so everybody can read it. Bob
This is good as it is. I added 3 other hours since my last post. I tried to feed the beauty with 100 octane fuel. She does not like it. She flies better with 95. Some I added some fuel stabilizer, and lead substitute, just to make sure. The simple 20-40 oil got some MOS2 from Liqui Moly,not yet really noticeable difference. This oil additive is grey, like graphite. The interesting thing that it does not darken the oil. After 5 hours the oil is clean almost as new. I watch it ready to replace this very basic oil with 20-50 racing and some more additive, but it does not look tired at all.
Half throttle 100km/h cruise. I just dont want to fly other than this. Day after day. I LOVE IT.
I replaced the windshields and added some strut fairings. Simple. apx 4 inch of 0.5mm sheet aluminum bent and sticked onto the half inch wing struts by aluminum duct tape. Its very strong. No screws no holes just stick it on. Maybe a couple of km/h difference, but I dont really feel that.
There is one really serious problem with this aircraft.
The fuel tank is only 16 liters, and I dont see the last 5. So 1h 20 min is safe, than its like a russian rulett I need to do something with it. And an extra 8 liter would be nince so I could go for a 3 hour trip safely.
Love your videos... makes me want a himax with A084! Wish I had engine rebuilding knowledge and skills of several of you on this board...
Tony, parts are easy and cheap from Saturnsurplus. I dont have particularly large knowledge, beside that what I take apart , I can put it back the same way and measure tolerances, use torque wrench. Its a dead simple engine, made a shop rebuilt my one, and it was USD 400 labour, with some small machine work. I am sure Bob can help you even if you dont buy his overhauled, ready to bolt , redrived 084. Once you ve done this you will have a 1500 hours engine. Anyhow, looking at your new shop and woodwork, I am 100% sure you can do it if you want to.
The rules I discovered with this : -closer you are to 170 cm and 75 kg is better. -This engine is doing great as stock, no fiddle with it, no tuning, no changing carb. -need a stainless steel exhaust with silencer (probably a 4 and a motorbike silencer) -will not be a STOL for sure but 400 ft/min on 600 ft AMSL and you have a relaxed ride with much less noise.
I am really surprised that this engine did not get his place in UL aviation. It is a good engine for anything similar to Himax.
Hey Peter - Thank you for your thoughtful response. My issue is that I've just never been around engines much - more of a desk jockey my whole life; so I am a neophyte. I am slowly learning after a dozen or so years in aviation - but just very naiive, engine-wise. I'm ok with woodwork - no craftsman by any means; but I have a basic shop, can mix T88 and make a square cut .
I'd love to buy Bob's engine, and his HiMax; but its just not in the cards for me right now - already a bit over-extended being between jobs and just acquiring Thunder's Eros (NO REGRETS!).
I've considered picking up a run-out A084 to use as an engine learning platform. But given that I don't think there is much in the way of public videos, and I don't have any mentor local; I'd be pestering the board every day for help! .
I am find with 400 ft/min. I learned to fly in a 65hp Aeronca and flew it across southern U.S. in dead heat of summer with another adult aboard... Don't think we ever saw 400ft/min!! LOL
I might be too big for the A084... I am 100kg and 180cm...
Still, really tempting to pick one up and see what I could learn...
Why focus on proving how great you are, when you could focus on becoming better?...
Tony, I am an amateaur as you are. Dont take this as an advice, but in your case due to your weight first I would think of one rib longer wing (which will not make you faster) or an foot long Hoerner wingtip I made on my first Himax. http://www.lonesomebuzzards.co.....light-hoerner/#num42 and definately a 1:1.6 redrive onto the 084 to swing a bigger prop. But I think its very doable if you source a donor Himax with tired 447 or 503.
Tony, I am an amateaur as you are. Dont take this as an advice, but in your case due to your weight first I would think of one rib longer wing (which will not make you faster) or an foot long Hoerner wingtip I made on my first Himax. http://www.lonesomebuzzards.co.....light-hoerner/#num42 and definately a 1:1.6 redrive onto the 084 to swing a bigger prop. But I think its very doable if you source a donor Himax with tired 447 or 503.
Ironically, I have thought about a longer wing project at some point if I use a lower power engine. (previously my Zenoah G25s drove the thinking).... I have time to ponder this, as for now I am focusing on my standard Eros build. I just love the sound and idea of the A064... thank you for your insights!
Why focus on proving how great you are, when you could focus on becoming better?...
A couple of you guys were interested in the A084s that I had a line on. Here's the latest. I'm not ready to tell exactly where they are, but if you are within 300-400 miles of north central Arkansas, it might be worth your time. Outside of that, the freight might be cost prohibitive. Sorry for the late return to the site. I don't get on here much. I'm surprised that it has had so much traffic. I don't get on here and give much information, and have learned not to give opinions or observations from my own experiences. I've been berated on several occasions for trying to be informative or give my opinion. Won't happen again.
The engines are not new by any stretch of the imagination. They have been inside but some have been sitting on the dirt. I turned the cranks and think most of them are in pretty good shape, but that is unfounded information and I don't guarantee anything at all. I am going to purchase two of them and have made the deal already. The guy that has them will keep two also. So that leaves 8 he wants to sell. $400 will buy one, no problem. The owner recently found out he has some form of leukemia, which is terrible! I hope it is treatable. Super nice guy. I'm going to talk to him this next week and pick up my engines, so maybe I'll have more information then. Here's a pic as they sit.
If you are further away than 300-400 miles, you will have to do your own research on freight. I don't think this guy feels like crating them up and shipping them. One other possibility. I travel a lot to the Texas panhandle. If you are close to that area, there is a good possibility that I could haul one that direction on one of my trips.
Looks like you found "The Motherload" of 4A084's! It's a shame I'm not in the market for one of them, since I'm only about 2.5 Hrs from North Central Arkansas. I have a 2A042 (the 2 Cylinder version) that I seriously considered using as I was building my MiniMAX, but finally decided to "keep it simple" and found a 277 Rotax. Actually, 4 total now. With what I've been through so far , re-sealing and re-ringing it, working out things for the belt drive, and now trying to sort out the tuning, I'm beginning to wish I had taken the 2A042 route. Oh well....water under the bridge, and I think I can see light at the end of the tunnel now. OK...that's enough cliches
What's the little 2-smoker with a belt PSRU at the right side of the picture?
I wish everyone success that goes the 4A084 route. There's a Yahoo group about them where you might find some helpful information too.
I talked and e-mailed with a gentleman, Kevin (I forget his last name...sorry) from West Virginia who has, or had, a MiniMAX with a 2A042. He seemed quite pleased with the plane's performance. He described the modifications he made to mount the engine, to account for the heavier weight, compared to a 277 Rotax, but I finally decided to just stick with the plans. I even had gone as far as buying one of the props he makes to work with the engine. He reported 55-60 MPH cruise at 3000-3100 RPM, and unless my memory is in error, flew it up to 9,500-10,000 Ft. ASL. I guess performance expectations are up to each individual, but I think I would have been happy with what he roprted after having talked with him.
Logged
. 
