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Ribstiching  This thread currently has 1,023 views. Print
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Seaplane Pirate
May 19, 2016, 4:27pm Report to Moderator

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Please ribstich your aircraft.  It's not hard really, and it could easily save your life.   I recently took fabric off a wing that was not stiched and it pulled off with very little effort.  I had flown the aircraft against my better judgment previously and decided that although it was only a few years old I wanted to be sure it was redone properly.   I know there will be many who say otherwise - it's not needed or it's too timeconsuming.

Not needed?  But the transponder is?  
Time consuming ?  - after your three year build you can't take two days to cover it properly?

I fly experimental as certificated aircraft, I didn't grow up with hang gliders - so I generally favor what is safe from a larger Standpoint.  The wing loading on a stock taylorcraft or J-3 is pretty low-  but the fabric is physically secured to the ribs.    Again I recently took the fabric off of "expertly" covered wings that was not ribstiched and it came off with very light force hardly more than tearing a sheet of paper.  This was 1.7oz fabric glued on only about two years ago....  

Just my two cents.  Check out this video:

https://youtu.be/n1Cnlv7Ggo4
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Bob Hoskins
May 19, 2016, 6:57pm Report to Moderator

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Hi
I agree.
Bob


Fly safe and have fun.
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Seaplane Pirate
May 20, 2016, 11:14am Report to Moderator

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TTT - no worries, your right the job wasn't expert. My use of quotes was an attempt at outlining that the persons involved were supposedly experts.  Without going off on a tangent about the specifics the main point is to express that- in my opinion- the standard Polyfibre or Stewart Systems process should be used too include ribstiching.  This airframe was also painted with automotive paint.  Auto paint cracks very very easily and when I pressed on the fabric between the ribs it cracked a perfect line down both ribs....  I inspected this after having to repair cracks on the fuselage.   No auto paint!  Auto paint comes off the fabric cleanly in chunks to expose totally bare fabric.  

Im undecided on the latex stuff so I cannot comment there but properly attaching the fabric is - in my opinion - not something to skimp on.  I've restored a few planes and my Himax project is my fourth build.  Once it's done I'm doing a full restoration on a Stinson 108-3.   It's possible that I'm biased to safety and the big bird ways of doing things, but if it's proven to work for 80+ years and required on everything from Cubs to DC-3's. That's a good indication it's important.  Mini max aircraft are great projects for first time builder and fun, as a community of builders and owners I feel we should promote safety- that's all I was getting at.  

Again just my thoughts on the subject.  
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Bob Daly
May 20, 2016, 1:44pm Report to Moderator
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Well, the aircraft in the video is a Canadian ultralight.  It would be light sport in the US and then, naturally, one would rib stitch.
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radfordc
May 20, 2016, 2:32pm Report to Moderator

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I'm sure there is no requirement that US experimental aircraft (that are light sport) have ribstitching.  I do agree that it is good practice.
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Bill Metcalf
May 20, 2016, 9:12pm Report to Moderator

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Wayne Ison and crew always insisted stitching was an option and had tested to show there were no problems with glue-only if operated within stated limits. If you were going to be heavy, or in the Experimental class you might like the extra security it offers. I took the extra time to do it, and used a simplified method (shown here) which is much faster and easier than the standard method. Since my airframe began construction in 1990 and stretched to eighteen years, I sleep a bit better knowing I'm stitched.

It also serves those with big Egos, when curiosity-seekers come over to your dinky little craft, expecting to criticize it, and find that you not only constructed your plane yourself...it's rib-stitched just like "real" airplanes, they gain a whole new level of respect.

I also used the latex finishing method and have had no issues whatsoever in more than six years of flying (More savings of time AND MONEY!).

As always...the choice is yours, and it's likely that the only practical difference you will see between these choices is how much time and money you spent. Once in the air you will forget all about it.



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nitrobill
May 20, 2016, 11:23pm Report to Moderator
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My Airbike is 16 years old and Wayne told me rib stitching was not needed and so far so good but I did install cap strips which gives more gluing surface.
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beragoobruce
May 21, 2016, 3:12am Report to Moderator
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I chose to stitch the ribs partly for security, & partly to learn a new skill.

Though frustrating at times, overall I enjoyed doing it.
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Antoni
May 21, 2016, 2:39pm Report to Moderator

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I am not an aircraft builder and so these points are really questions, not assertions. First time I've ever heard so much about rib-stiching on TEAM aircraft. Since the thread title is ribs and not trailing edge fabric departures (scary) I'll offer this:

I can't stop myself staring out sideways over the wings' upper surfaces in flight. Blody beautiful sight from a Minimax cockpit.

I see that air pressure inside the wing is greater than outside because the fabrick baloons upward slightly at most airspeeds. That means the fabric to rib glue joint is under tension. Stitching would strengthen / back-up that joint but the build manuals don't require it to be done (IIRC).

If there is a problem with the rib-fabric adhesion on a particular build it would seem sensible that there would be a local failure before a major failiure and that the loocal failure would be visible from the cockpit, prompting an early landing...
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radfordc
May 21, 2016, 6:31pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Antoni


If there is a problem with the rib-fabric adhesion on a particular build it would seem sensible that there would be a local failure before a major failiure and that the loocal failure would be visible from the cockpit, prompting an early landing...


When a "local failure" does occur it often immediately causes additional failures....like a zipper unfastening.  The entire wing can quickly fail like was shown in the video in the first post.

The reason that TEAM said that rib stitching isn't required is because of the low speed and light wing loading of their aircraft.  If you glue the fabric properly it will last for a long while.  But, rib stitching no doubt lasts longer and is safer.
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Sterling Silver
May 22, 2016, 1:17am Report to Moderator

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Say Bill,
I know only one way to rib stitch but there might be another way to do these low and slow machines. That's what prompts this question.
1. Is the rib stitching done as described in AC 43.13? I ask in reference to 43.13 because that is the shortest way I can think of to ask so that it can be answered "yes" or "no".

Just trying to check the extent of my ignorance.


Bert
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beragoobruce
May 22, 2016, 5:23am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Sterling Silver
Is the rib stitching done as described in AC 43.13?


Short answer is 'no' because the build manual doesn't mandate ribstitching.

I can only say what I did - others may do differently. I generally followed AC 43.13 with the following exceptions:

1. I did not brace the ribs with tape or anything else. I glued the fabric with PolyTak, shrunk it to 300 degrees only. The rib caps did not move during shrinking prior to stitching.

2. I did not use the modified Seine knot. I used the Beech Staggerwing knot, as this is much simpler & is successfully used on the Staggerwing at higher wing loadings & airspeeds than the Max.

In general, I followed the Stewart system handbook; the PolyTak handbook, & the instructional videos from EAA.  Spacing for stitches & materials was as per AC 43.13
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Sterling Silver
May 25, 2016, 4:23am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from beragoobruce


Short answer is 'no' because the build manual doesn't mandate ribstitching.

I can only say what I did - others may do differently. I generally followed AC 43.13 with the following exceptions:

1. I did not brace the ribs with tape or anything else. I glued the fabric with PolyTak, shrunk it to 300 degrees only. The rib caps did not move during shrinking prior to stitching.

2. I did not use the modified Seine knot. I used the Beech Staggerwing knot, as this is much simpler & is successfully used on the Staggerwing at higher wing loadings & airspeeds than the Max.

In general, I followed the Stewart system handbook; the PolyTak handbook, & the instructional videos from EAA.  Spacing for stitches & materials was as per AC 43.13


I am not familiar with that (which means very little), but I imagine that the top of the wing looks better when you get through.

thanks


Bert
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Bill Metcalf
May 26, 2016, 7:30pm Report to Moderator

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I used the modified Seine knot.

Allow me to offer this point of view after flying my plane for more than six years, sometimes in pretty wild conditions. Why you WOULD want to stitch:

There's nothing like flying an open-cockpit very light aircraft to give one a sense of the forces being applied to the structure. You can look out across the wing and see the force of the moving air rippling the fabric. Move an elbow up onto the cockpit rail and the airplane will turn. Depending upon the helmet being worn, your head can be battered about from the wind spilling over the windscreen. If you have not extended the two sides of the windscreen, the air coming around it will punch you side-to-side, and in any weather but very hot you will soon begin to feel the wind chill.

The aileron movement required to initiate a turn is almost imperceptible. The wind is so strong that the very slight change in wing camber will quickly act. A thermal popping off the ground will initiate a surprising force against the airplane. If it catches one wing on its way up it will require all the strength you can muster with one arm to keep the airplane level and upright. If you catch a good one in the right place, the suddenly increasing G-force with take your breath as the plane leaps upwards. The moving air will bounce and bobble you and cause your RPM to fluctuate wildly. You realize you are in control...but you also realize that could quickly change.

Experiencing the power and movement of the air upon you and your airplane while airborne generates a combined feeling of awe and fear. You realize that it would take but a moment for your world to completely change. It will make you feel good when you look out across those big wings and know that fabric is firmly attached to the structure. I highly recommend it
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Tom
May 26, 2016, 10:56pm Report to Moderator
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Beautifully written, Bill.

Tom
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Sterling Silver
May 26, 2016, 11:31pm Report to Moderator

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Bill, I agree.
One reason I bought THE FLAG was because Double O attached 1/2in. wide capstrips on each rib to increase the area to which the fabric was glued. Then he also rib stitched the wings. This is heavier than the original plans, but I just feel safer with the familiar, especially as the plane ages.

I agree with Tom's complement.


Bert
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Ricardo
May 27, 2016, 12:21am Report to Moderator

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When I built my Minimax I just followed the builder's manual, even bought the video about  how to cover the Minimax. However it would be nice to see the wing stitched. I always test the wing for the slightest defect, so far so good, plane lives in a Hangar  



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Bill Metcalf
May 27, 2016, 4:06am Report to Moderator

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Ricardo, that terrain looks surprisingly unfriendly to land on! I also bought the TEAM covering video. It was shocking to hear Larry Isreal refer to MEK as "thinner." And he didn't seem concerned enough to wear gloves or a mask!
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radfordc
May 27, 2016, 1:23pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Bill Metcalf
It was shocking to hear Larry Isreal refer to MEK as "thinner." And he didn't seem concerned enough to wear gloves or a mask!


There's probably a lot of us guilty of that.  No telling how many brain cells I've killed with stuff like that over the years.
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Sterling Silver
May 27, 2016, 9:05pm Report to Moderator

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I don't know what happens to a person who repeatedly gets MEK, Acetone, diesel, gasoline, paint thinner and other hydrocarbons on themselves, but my wife argues that it doesn't kill brain cells. She says if that killed brain cells I wouldn't have enough to breathe by now.    She was surprised that I could walk and talk at the same time when we got home from our honeymoon 50 years ago.  


Bert
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Bill Metcalf
May 28, 2016, 2:55pm Report to Moderator

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A pilot friend was a chemist at Los Alamos labs. They had to have their blood tested regularly for compounds such as MEK
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Tom
May 28, 2016, 3:10pm Report to Moderator
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Even the most familiar and innocuous seeming chemicals can be very bad for you over the long term.  Paint and varnish guys all my life have had the reputation of being the most difficult people to work with.  We always used to say that it must be the cranky, paranoid people who go into that work.  Awhile back I read some extensive studies which showed that long term exposure to the solvents in most paints and other chemicals would cause damage to the central nervous system which tended to make people in that field cranky, explosive in personality, and paranoid.

The prevention is: Don't get it on you, use a huge amount of ventilation, use cartridges in a filter mask which specifically filter out the chemicals you use, and if at all possible use an breathable air compressor outside the shop to pipe in air to a full face mask.

Tom
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Sterling Silver
June 2, 2016, 3:36am Report to Moderator

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To be clear, I was just making fun of myself in my previous post.

I have had those things on me, plus some others, but anyone should know that when you get something on your hands and can almost immediately taste it, that thing can't be good for you.

Thanks for the information.


Bert
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ulbuilder
June 3, 2016, 2:08am Report to Moderator
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Pirate Pilot, thanks for this post.

In the video the trailing edge lifted. Without the rib stitching the fabric pulled away from the ribs.

The Minimax has been known to have the trailing edge lift so very well could fail in the same manner.

I'll be ordering rib stitching supplies for my wings.
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Seaplane Pirate
June 6, 2016, 1:21am Report to Moderator

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Enjoy- the video rom Polyfiber helps make it easy, I'm doing another Minimax wing in a week or so and will post a few pictures, a cub wing takes about 5 hours for me to do.  The Minimax is less time but I'd guess 5-7 hours if it's the first time.  
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ulbuilder
July 10, 2016, 5:41pm Report to Moderator
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I used the method shown in this video:
https://youtu.be/6Y-oU1ikcAA

It took me about 8 hours to stitch the left wing with 3" spacing. I installed 1/2" plywood rib caps on the top but not the bottom so I used 1/2" reinforcing tape on the top and on the bottoms I cut the 1/2" tape in half. Used the flat lacing cord that surprisingly tended to lay flat on its own.

The only thing that was difficult was getting around the compression members but my home made curved needle solved that problem. Making it was easy, music wire, hammer flat on one end, drill hole, grind/file and bend to shape.

The picture shows the final result after applying finishing tape and latex primer.



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bigbrixx1
July 10, 2016, 6:16pm Report to Moderator

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nice! I averaged one hour a rib when stitching! But I am slow at everything I do😄


V-max. Finished. Now in phase one flight
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